Small gas canister (50g)

[Stuart R]

I found this gas canister in my local hardware store. It has a standard threaded resealable Lindal valve. The canister body is a single piece of aluminium, like a deodourant spray.
It contains 50g of butane, so perfect for a weekend trip with a UL remote canister stove.
As purchased it weighs 75g, so the canister itself is just 25g.

[JCH]

I wonder what the performance differences are between this "pure" butane and the 80/20 Butane/Propane mix in the canister stove specific offerings?

Please keep us updated on how it works for you.

[Woubeir (from Europe)]

as I think GoGas has now an other name, GoSystem, this canister appears not to be offered anymore.

[Stuart R]

"Butane" for use in a canister stove has no requirement to be pure.
The Comite Francais du Butane et du Propane proscribes the properties of commercial Butane which it defines (in French) as "a mix of hydrocarbons made up mainly of butanes and butenes and containing less than 19% by volume of propane and propene". It also requires the vapour pressure of the mixture to be less than 6.9 bar at 50C. The Campingaz/Coleman MSDS lists the boiling point as -5C.
By comparison, the BP of 80/20 Butane/Propane is around -15C (but will rise rapidly if the canister is used upright).

[Stuart R]

Woubeir – yes, this looks like old stock.

Add – it is still listed in the GoSystem catalogue

[Roger Caffin]

> performance differences are between this "pure" butane and the 80/20 Butane/Propane mix
Very little difference – can be ignored, if you go by weight of fuel. Really, what matters are the numbers of carbon atoms present, be they in a C3 or C4 chain.

Cheers

[Roger Caffin]

Screw thread?
I want!

In Australia? Hum ….

Cheers

[Bob Gross]

The big advantage that I see is that this is small enough that you can put it in your shirt pocket to keep it warm. That is not easy to do with any other normal butane canister.

The big disadvantage is related. The base is so small that it would be difficult to burn this in an upright orientation.

–B.G.–

[Woubeir (from Europe)]

Those boiling points are wrong. The correct ones are -0,5°C for n-butane and ± -8,5°C for the 20/80 mixture.

[Woubeir (from Europe)]

"Add – it is still listed in the GoSystem catalogue"

Not anymore on their website or can you show me where ?

[Stuart R]

http://www.go-system.co.uk/media/gosystem/brochures/GoSystem-Professional-and-DIY.pdf

Regarding boiling points, yes pure n-butane is -0.5C but my point is that the gas in butane canisters is not pure – why would anyone go to the expense of highly refining a gas that is only going to be burned?
Can you explain your figure of +/-8.5C for 80/20 butane/propane?

[Woubeir (from Europe)]

That catalogue is from 2010.

About the boiling point for the mixture: take the ratio of the components and their respective boiling points so here (0,8 x -0,5)+(0,2 x -40,7) = ± -8,5. It's only a quick calculation and I don't know if it's that simple.

[Stuart R]

It's not that simple: you need to account for the vapour pressure and the molar fraction of each component in the liquid mixture.

[Woubeir (from Europe)]

Well, it's only a quick calculation to get a rough idea. What I am certain about is that -15°C for the 20/80 mixture is unreal (based on experiments and experience).

[Stuart R]

I still assert that the boiling point of a 80/20 mixture is around -15C.
The canister needs to be at least 5C warmer than the boiling point to have sufficient pressure to operate a stove, so around -10C in this case.
You may be aware that as a canister is used in an upright position, the propane will get used up very quickly (due to it's higher vapour pressure) and soon the canister will contain 99% butane. This obviously changes the gas pressure and at this point the canister will need to be at least +5C for a stove to work.
This is all described in the BPL article
The Effect of Cold on Gas Canisters.
(URL added)

[Stuart R]

I emptied one of these to accurately measure the weight of the empty canister: 23.7g

What was interesting: I emptied the contents into another partially empty canister which contained a butane/propane mix. Now, if the GoGas canister contained pure n-butane then that should not be possible, so there is the intriguing possibility that the GoGas canister may contain iso-butane.

[David Thomas]

>"You may be aware that as a canister is used in an upright position, the propane will get used up very quickly (due to it's higher vapour pressure) and soon the canister will contain 99% butane. "

Not exactly. The reason oil refineries have those tall columns is that multi-step distillation gives more complete separation than a single-stage distillation. Yes, the first-used vapors will be more propane-rich and the last-used fuel will be somewhat propane depleted, but there's always some butane in the mix and some propane left behind. And the higher fraction of butane remaining – the lower the vapor pressure of the mix.

Best practices: Weigh your canister when new to the nearest gram. Write, "Full = 317 grams" on it. Ideally, also weigh a canister when totally depleted and write that as an empty weight on all your canisters of the same type and vintage. Then you quantify how much is left in each canister before a trip. Bring partial canisters on shorter, summer trips. And use newer canisters on winter trips, because, yes, the mix has more propane when fuller and you'll get better cold-weather performance.

Some of us have been known to refill canisters and jiggle with the propane/butane ratio rather a lot (those of us who NEVER have hot summers and want a canister to behave well to low temps), but that is a fairly advanced skill as there are far more ways to do it unsafely than you'd think.

[Stuart R]

>>"You may be aware that as a canister is used in an upright position, the propane will get used up very quickly (due to it's higher vapour pressure) and soon the canister will contain 99% butane. "

>Not exactly.

Yes I realise that that was not an exact description, but I was trying to describe what happens in a single simple sentence :-)

[David Thomas]

I never use a single sentence in lieu of 3 paragraphs!

[Don Morris]

That's for sure…

[Don Morris]

But they are good paragraphs….

[Hikin’ Jim]

lol.

Well, I wish those canisters were available here in the US. I've never seen one.

In the US, one can get a small Camping Gaz CV360 canister which is 50g of "100% butane" (I use quotes here since obviously it's not laboratory grade n-butane. They're hard to find, but they can be found. The CV360 canisters have a smooth connector, similar to the standard Camping Gaz connector on the CV270 and CV470 canisters, but smaller.

I've been wanting to try a Caffin Stove on one of the CV360 canisters, but I haven't been quite able to justify getting a Caffin Stove given how many other remote canister stoves I already have. I was about to purchase one used when I got notice that my position at work will be eliminated in a couple of months. Sigh.

If anyone is in the Orange County, CA, area and has a Caffin Stove they'd like to let me try with a CV360 canister, please do contact me. :)

HJ
Adventures In Stoving
Hikin' Jim's Blog

[John K]

Reviving this old thread to post an update on a failed experiment. I noticed that the 40g canisters of ‘freon’ for boating / sporting air horns have a Lindal valve on them. The pressure should be fine for butane. The problem with this particular canister is that the valve is seated a little deep and none of my stoves or adapters could reach in far enough to push the center pin open. I did a minor mod to a BRS3000 and got it to mate – my transfer valve would not reach in far enough: https://www.amazon.com/Plus-Canister-Shifter-Adapter-Function/dp/B00U2EE6M2/ref=pd_lpo_vtph_468_tr_t_2?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=PNNM0KJ6BYZBG2NV9DAB

Close, but no cigar! I’m still seeking a similar sized canister – if anyone runs across one or figures a may to fill this one, let me know.  :)

[Franco Darioli]

look in the blow torch area at your hardware store.

Some of those use the lindal valve.

you may also find them as cooking torches.

[John K]

Thanks for the lead… I’ve got my eyes peeled!

[Author]

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