cannister stove fuel leak?

[cushing hamlen]

I am wondering if anyone in the forum has had an experience with loss/leak of fuel from a cannister stove. I just did a 3-day in-out hike on the Franconia Notch section of the AT with my 7-year-old son (ok…I’ll brag a little: the little guy chugged along the ascent and descent of the 5000+ footers and walked the Franconia ridge in rain/thunder…and kept up a really good pace for hours while carrying a ten pound pack. Maybe someday he will be a through-hiker?? :-) ) Anyways, I packed a Snow Peak Giga Power canister stove…expecting to get about 7 liters boiled out of a small 100g (3.5 oz)canister. It actually ended up running out of fuel on me at about 3.25 liters. This is MUCH less than I would have expected based on advertised performance…even including efficiency loss due to a moderate breeze while shielding the stove by hand. One observation is that on the last night out I was rushing to beat incoming thunderstorms (they were rather nasty that night), and mistakenly left the burner head attached to the canister over night while the rain pounded down. The next morning I noticed the canister seemed emptier than I would have expected…and sure enough it emptied completely while cooking breakfast. The only thing I can figure is that it leaked fuel overnight while the head was connected to the canister. Has anyone experienced anythng like this that would support my guess?

[Alex Orgren]

Maybe I’m paranoid, but when using a canister, I always disconnect it after use. I’ve never had a canister run out that quickly, even at sub-freezing temps in the wind, so it seems likely that some fuel escaped.

[Andy Lewicky]

You might want to check the canister stove reviews on this (BPL) site. The GigaPower drops from the #1-2 ranked stove to the very bottom of the pack–unable to even bring water to a boil–when you add wind. Efficiency, as you’d imagine, plummets as well.

This could explain what happened to you. I always leave the stove and canister attached (with some anxiety) but I’ve never experienced leakage problems.

Ultimately, I switched from the GigaPower to the Coleman F1 Ultralight, and I’ve found it to be a far superior stove once real-world conditions are figured in.

[Ryan Jordan]

Great thread, with good stove comments.

Canister stove technical questions are probably among the most popular category of gear questions our customer support staff receives.

I’d encourage anyone who owns a canister stove to post their reader reviews on them here:

 BackpackingLight.com Reader Reviews of Canister Stoves

Lots of activity there on the GigaPower, but not on other stoves.

Thanks! – Ryan

[Ryan Jordan]

I’ve experienced leaks when the stove is not screwed tightly on the canister. It can range from a rapid hiss to a slow, imperceptible bleed. The latter is the worst because you don’t know it’s happening! Keep your stove on tight!

Never pack your canister with stove attached in your pack. Always separate.

I did have an early model MSR Superfly fail on me. MSR replaced it, no questions asked. The center pin of the stove that engages the canister got stuck in the open position enough to cause that nasty slow bleed of fuel. It was probably my fault, I dropped the stove in some very find clay/sand dust in the desert, and got a lot of gunk up in there.

[Andy Lewicky]

Here’s the link to the review I mentioned:

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/lightweight_canister_stoves_test_report.html

I always have trouble navigating thorugh BPL’s review section.

Should mention I meant I leave the stove attached to fuel can while at camp; I always break down the stove when it goes in the pack.

The GigaPower certainly has a lot of great design features, but as the BPL review shows, it just can’t cope with wind (maybe because the burner head is so small).

Andy

[cushing hamlen]

Thanks for the comments all. I am finally back in the “real world” (i.e. back from vacation :-( ) and can pay some attention to this. I was aware of the cannister stove review (great write-up PPL staff!) & the comments regarding wind/efficiency tested there. We did have some wind…but only some, and it was easily countered using a hand as a wind shield. Boil times were not unexpectedly long…so while loss of efficiency due to wind is possible, I would be REALLY surprised (maybe “alarmed” is a better phrase)at a nearly 50% loss due to the slight breeze. Elevation was about 4000 ft…so that should not be a big factor. From the stove review I had the impression that a “leak” would be detectable by the ear or “sniff” test (oh…another detail: the cannister was a jet-boil 100g, not the Snow Peak cannister), and did not detect such. I note Ryan’s comments regarding his experiences with an imperceptible slow bleed, and wonder if this could have happened to me. Another issue might be that with the thunderstorms that rolled through just after dinner came a temperature drop of 20 degrees or so…and wonder whether that could have converted a somewhat loose seal to a slow leak? Just now I tend to think something like that happened, because making dinner the night before, nothing unusual struck me about the cannister, but the first thing I noticed in the morning was that is seemed really light on fuel. Right now the stove is in the mail in-transit back to me, but when it comes in, I think I might test it to see whether it has a slow leak when connected, and try to get a feel for just how tight a seal is needed to avoid a leak. Maybe the ultimate learning here is never-never-never leave the stove connected to the cannister unles actively cooking. In this case the impact was small: we were packing to hike out, and my little boy just did not get a second cup of oatmeal, and I could fill the gap with Hudson’s Bay break….but if this had happened earlier, or if we had planned on being out longer, the trip would have been forced to come to an early end. When I can do some tests on the stove, I will re-post to the thread, and also leave comments in the customer review area.

[cushing hamlen]

So, I got my stove back in the mail, ran out to REI, bought another 110 g Jetpower cannister, and **tried** to make it leak. With the valve closed, the design is surprisingly resistant to leaking. The internal o-ring appears to seal before the pin in the valve opens the seal in the cannister. Bottom line: I could not get the thing to leak…including leaving it for two days with the stove threaded very loosely onto the stove. I guess that leaves several possibilities for my original issue: 1) dirt in the fitting made it leak (Ryan, you said that has been an issue, right?), 2) somehow I “bumped” open the valve while getting the stove under shelter under the vestibule, or 3) I really just ran out of fuel. I think I will have to try the “how many increments of 2 cups of water can I boil” test……

[cat morris]

I have a MSR Windpro & took it on a trip to Windy Gap- horrible winds & horrible stove efficiency even with a wind screen in a rock screen. I also left the canister out under my tent flyovernight & it was very cold with condensation which probably also added to poor efficiency. I now keep my canister wrapped in my wool hat at night in my pack.

I have also had a few times when I left the cartridge attached overnight- however, the problem was that the threads loosened perhaps as the stove cooled & in the morning would not light until I retighted the cartridge, thus just the opposite of an overnight leak.

Lucky for you it ran out after breakfast!

Is that the general rule of thumb for canisters: 3.5oz canister= 7 liters boiled? And can I assume that means boiling point at sea level?

[cushing hamlen]

If you look at this link

http://www.rei.com/online/store/ProductDisplay?storeId=8000&catalogId=40000008000&productId=870048&parent_category_rn=4500453&vcat=REI_SEARCH

the claim is that (for this stove) 7 liters are boiled per 100g fuel (which is the size of the 3.5 oz cannister). A while ago I was obsessing about stove fuel efficiency (ok..I was really trying to argue that it was OK not to give up on my old trusty SVEA), and came to the conclusion that pretty much across the board, whether you are talking white gas, or cannister fuel, that stove efficiency is right around 0.5 oz fuel (by wt) per liter of water boiled. Individual stoves vary a little around that, but not by much. Now, this is taking the Mfgs. word for it…which is why I think I had better actually do the experiment.

Which I guess raises the question as to whether anyone reading the Forum has done this experiment? Much work has gone in to “speed to boil”…but I am not sure whether nearly as much has been posted as to “amt of fuel per liter boiled”. I have seen it occasionally, but not too often….

[Robert Kiilsgaard]

I have had a problem in the past with the O ring not sealing properly. Not sure about the giga, but with the Brunton, there is an O ring that seats to the top of the canister, and if that seal is not good, then you can have a leak. My leak was liquid, so if you had that I bet you probably would have noticed it. Just another option of what could have happened here.

[cushing hamlen]

I finally got time to do the experiment I wanted to. I used the Gigapro stove, a new 110 g (3.5 oz) cannister(Jetboil brand), a Snow Peak Trek 700 pot. I set about boiling a series of two-cup batches of water (i.e NOT one liter at a time…which is the “typical” test). All runs were done with the output set to fully open. Sittiing on my back step there was enough wind to play with the stove output, but not completely disrupt it (very much like a typical non-storm environment in the wild). Bottom line: 3 liters total of water boiled….which is VERY different from what would be expected from the claim of 7 liters boiled per cannister made by pretty much all the mfgs.

The question is why such a discrepancy? I doubt all the mfgs are misrepresenting their data. My guess is this: a combination of wind effect and pot size. It is very clear that there is a lot of flame spillage away from this small pot (even with no wind). This is “lost” heat. With a larger pot, like what would be used to boil a full liter or more, there would be less flame spillage, and more heat transferred to the water. So the assumption that it takes half the fuel to boil two cups of water versus a liter (~4 cups) is dead wrong. In perfect conditions with absolutely no wind you can turn down the output to minimize flame spillage…but how often do we encounter those conditions? That leads to the other piece – wind, and the need to keep the output turned up to keep the flame in contact with the pot.

Frankly, this makes me REALLY think twice about the usefulness of cannister stoves. They are SO convenient, but this realization now makes them appear twice as heavy as they would appear to be. What we need is a really good way to wind-shield them so you can turn the output down and really minimize flame spillage. Jet Boil is heading the right way…but the system is still heavy. I know the cannister stove review talked about one way of creating a wind screen…but I do not think it went far enough. Anyone out there want to work on an effective method for wind proofing these stoves?

[Richard Nelridge]

Cushing,

Any Stove used outside, and subject to wind without protection will burn much more fuel than if it is protected. To get the greatest efficiency, fastest cooking and boiling times, and least fuel consumption a wind screen, protection from wind, and insulation are a must. This will be true for any Esbit, Alcohol, White Gas, Kerosene, Unleaded Gasoline, Jet Fuel, or any variety of Canister stove (whether the small screw on like the Snow Peak or the remote canister like the Coleman Xtreme).

Rich

[cushing hamlen]

Richard,

I am well aware of that. My points, though perhaps not made as clearly as I wanted to are 1) I was taken by surprise by the MAGNITUDE of the reduction in efficiency (a factor of two), even in LIGHT winds, and 2) that POT SIZE had a very significant effect due to increased flame spillage…this being especially important in the lightweight arena, because we would only tend to boil two cups or so at a time, and not carry a larger pot.

By and large, cannister stoves are the only class of stoves that do not have a really good (safe) wind-proofing option,and my question is to whether if we “put our heads together” we can come up with a better option.

[D G]

Cushing,
I think you’ll find much better results not running the stove full blast.

I own a gigapower and have used it with small diameter pots (Snow Peak 600 and the pot on the mini solo cookset). These are pretty small diameter pots. I’ve done tests boiling water at different power settings and weighed the cannister before and after to figure out fuel used. The stove seems to pretty much consistently boil 16 oz using about .25oz of fuel when you turn down the power to the point where there is no flame spillage out the side. That works out to about 0.5 oz for a liter of water. Multiply that by the 3.5 oz for the cannister and that puts you in the ballpark of 7 liters boiled.

I don’t use a windscreen on the stove, I just block the wind with a backpack or other large object.

Cheers
Dan

[cushing hamlen]

Daniel,

Thank you for your observations…I will try that (that testing must have been a lot of work). I still find it interesting that so much hype exists around heat output of stoves, but yet higher output might be self-defeating in terms of required carry-weight for more than a couple-day outing.

The Jet Boil claims 12 liters boiled per 3.5 oz. cartridge – which suggests we could do much better than 7 liters with any stove if we could control wind and heat transfer better. This is especially so if you find you can get to the 7 liter per cannister point with only basic shielding.

Thanks again Daniel.

-Cushing

[Al Clemens]

Obviously wind is the main culprit for the dramatic loss of efficiency in your stove.

But on side note, I’ve found the Jetboil canisters to lose a bit of fuel when connecting and disconnecting from the stove. There’s an audible hiss both ways. I have a Coleman F1 Ultralight and a MSR Superfly;this was apparent on both stoves. I tried the two stoves with MSR and Primus cartridges side by side with the Jetboil cyl and they didn’t do this. Bottom line: I don’t trust the valves on these cartridges and remove stove when not in use.

I’ve heard the Jetboil fuel to be mfg’d by Snowpeak(cartridges are same size and shape as Gigapower ones),but with more propane (25-30%) content for winter use.

[Richard Nelridge]

Cushing,

If you have not done so, you may wish to check the BPL review of the Jet Boil Stove at:

http://tinyurl.com/76efx

Rich

[Bill Fornshell]

I have used a canister stove with a remote gas line to the canister for about 10 years. You don’t have to worry about the canister getting hot as it can be as far away from the stove as 12″. In cold weather such as around Mt Washington in the winter I also use a cozy on the canister. There are several brands of this type of stove on the market. Mine is an old MSR Rapid Fire. MSR has a newer lighter version called the Wind Pro (see below).
I remove the canister after using the stove each time. My windscreen works really well.

Taken from an REI add:

“Cook like a backcountry gourmet, thanks to WindPro’s wide burner-head that evenly distributes the cooking flame for scorch-free cooking!
Easy to operate–no priming, pre-heating or pressurizing is necessary; attach it an IsoPro canister and start cooking (canister sold separately)
Wide burner-head distributes flame evenly; includes windscreen and heat reflector for increased operating performance
Three legs/pot supports fan out to form a stable six-inch cooking surface; folds for compact storage
Flame is easily adjusted from a steady simmer to a full boil; 12-inch long fuel line keeps control valve well away from the flame
Totally field maintainable, every stove part is designed to be taken apart and easily replaced in the field
Specifications based on testing with MSR IsoPro Fuel Canister 227g. Made in USA.

Specs:

MSR WindPro Stove

Specification Description

Suggested use Backpacking

Weight (w/ no fuel) 6.8 ounces

Dimensions 4.5 x 3.4 x 2.8 inches

Fuel Isobutane

Average boil time 4 min. 42 sec.

Fuel capacity (cartridge) 227 grams

Burn time (max flame) (227g canister) 70 min. 20 sec.

Water boiled per 100g fuel 6.56 liters

Ease of operation Excellent

Cold weather use Fair

Stove stability Fair

Pot stability Excellent”

[cat morris]

I too have the windpro & have only had loss of efficiency in cold with condensation & wind chill. I’m interested in your canister cozy!

[Bill Law]

I just returned from a week-long trip in the central Sierra. I bought a new Coleman F1 Ultralight, based primarily on the BPL review. My friend bought one also, for this trip.

We used maybe 1.5 large canisters for 3 people over 7 days. I’m not sure how much water per day was boiled. Probably something on the order of 4 liters per day. So that works out to 28 liters for 3 small canisters, or ~10 liters per small canister.

I ran my stove at much less than full volume, and I think my friends did likewise.

re: a windscreen

I tried to build a windscreen per the BPL article. It was not a pretty sight. I used aluminum flashing rather than foil; I hate to think how foil would have performed. As soon as I fired up the stove with the screen in place, the metal base of the windscreen started to sag, to the point where it wasn’t working. I construted some “supports” of extra pieces of flashing and let it run a bit longer. The flashing burned to a crisp.

I concluded that there was no way to construct a workable windscreen along the lines of the one presented in that article. There’s just too much heat trapped between the bottom of the windscreen and the bottom of the pot.

I also own a Gaz Turbo 270 stove with the hose connection between the canister and burner. I’ve always liked that stove, but the compactness and weight savings of the Coleman (plus the fact that the Gaz stove only has 3 disrete settings) have convinced me to switch. I might even give up my Brasslite alcohol stove for the Coleman, even for solo 1-2 night trips.

Bill Law

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