Gear for freezing rain

May be of interest:

http://www.pmags.com/cold-and-wet-the-hardest-hiking

"Personally, I'm simply not willing to hike without any waterproofing on my feet in freezing rain."
Don't write off this method until you've tried it. It has worked well for me in cold rain/sleet. Wear wool socks underneath and have warm dry socks ready to put on in camp. Your body generates quite a bit of heat when hiking. And wool does a decent job of retaining heat even when wet.

"Secondly, I found Frogg Toggs has nice rain suits on Amazon, but it doesn't seem like they are too heavily used here on BackpackingLight. Is there anything wrong with them?"
Dri ducks are a much lighter version of Frogg Toggs. Many people on this site use dri ducks. They are very light, waterproof, highly breathable, and repair with duct tape. Really the only downside is that they are not durable. They are a great option if you are on trail and not too hard on your gear. The pants are extremely fragile and will like rip on first use.

"Is a 55-gal black garbage bag good to pack as a backup rain poncho, shelter, and/or pack bag?"
A garbage bag can work in a pinch. Its non-breathable but will keep the cold rain off of you and is not too heavy. I have never needed a backup rain jacket though.

Edit: What Mags posted.

When I was a kid I'd wear bread bags inside my boots to keep my feet relatively dry when there was lots of slush. I'm not sure I'd want to do that hiking though, since they're so slippery that unless your shoes fit PERFECTLY you'll probably find that it compromises the stability of your stride quite a bit. It's been a while since I tried it (and even then, it was in big clodhopper winter boots) but fwiw I'd be nervous about my feet sliding inside my shoes (esp. since you're already trying to handle the sliding on the outside of your shoes).

…

If it's too cold for going non waterproof on your feet, the rocky goretex socks work great. They are the best waterproof sock that you can get and the actually work.

If waterproofness is not totally needed to keep your feet warm, try thick wool boot socks.

I've hiked for prolonged periods in freezing rain. The comment about thick wool socks is right on. As long as you keep moving your feet will be fine. I'm old school and still use the cheap thick rag wool socks even in good weather. Of course I still use boots too (not waterproof ones).

For your upper body nothing beats synthetic layers, and/or fleece. The biggest issue is moderating your temp. because you can easily overheat when working, then drop like a rock once you stop. A hard shell is to keep you warm, not necessary dry. Forget about dry until you get into camp.

Camp is another strategy. Keep some clothing dry that you can swap into once you have shelter up. Wet clothing when laying around camp will quickly make life miserable and unsafe. I've intentionally worn thin wet clothing to dry it out (using body heat) but the thick wool socks come off, the fleece if it is wet….off. Those things can go on wet in the morning and while uncomfortable for the first 30-minutes, they will warm right up with the activity of hiking.

"For your upper body nothing beats synthetic layers, and/or fleece"

Fleece excels in this setting IMHO. I have also found the old Marmot DriClime shirt to be useful in slushy precipitation if it's not coming down too hard.

I wear mesh shoes, liner socks, nylon pants and shirt, nylon/spandex T shirt, hard shell jacket, no rain pants or kilt, and I keep moving. I'll pull my hands into my sleeves if need be and if it's really bad, put on my Possum Down Gloves.

If precipitation is likely, I'll bring silk weight uppers/lowers to sleep in. I bag up my wet clothes and sleep with them so I don't have to suffer through putting on cold/wet clothes the next morning.

This won't work for everyone.

If it rains long enough, your boots won't keep you dry, from sweating if nothing else. I've found that mesh shoes like the La Sportiva Wildcats work best for me as there's nowhere for water to collect in my shoes and they dry quickly. My feet have been wet for days at a time. Dry them out at night and you'll be fine. The guys I know who have had trench foot are soldiers who had to wear their boots 24/7 but YMMV.

If you're really concerned, eat the weight penalty and bring extra socks (both heavy and liners), gtx socks, bread bags, gallon ziplocks, etc and do some experimenting to see what works best for you.

I've found that within reason, when it comes to wet and cold conditions, you're better off erring on the side of caution and removing clothes from your pack over time as you gain more experience. When you see 38* and precipitation in the forecast, schedule a day hike that has easy bail-out options to shake down your gear.

A simple 100 wt fleece is one of my go-to items in these conditions. I find myself taking one in early or late season backpacks for sure. A decent one can be had for not much money. For about 8 or 9 oz, it is a great item to have.

I suspect if I were backpacking exclusively in New England again (where I started), a 100 wt fleece would be a permanent part of my kit. In warmer conditions, I'd probably take a puffy vest; for shoulder seasons a puffy jacket.

As with many people, I shied away from fleece in my quest to go light.

However, in the past few years I have found out again just how versatile a fleece can be.

Another option for feet that normally is mentioned, but hasn't been yet, is NRS Hydroskin socks. They're a very thin 0.5mm thick neoprene sock. I've used them for "freezing rain" conditions, snow shoeing, and all day wading in 40F water to good use. The neoprene keeps most water from reaching your feet (prevents heat loss from flushing of water) and you can put wool socks over for additional warmth.

A fleece for hiking and synth puffy layers for standing around are the staples. They're probably the easiest to use.

Don't discount the danger of 30s *F weather and rain. This is the most miserable and probably dangerous weather you can hike in. Colder tends to be dryer and then it's just a matter of having proper layers. Wet 30s though are very difficult to thermo-regulate between periods of activity and inactivity.

As someone who's suffered pretty bad hypothermia on a handful of occasions (winter/fall learning curve was steap for this desert rat)….don't mess around. Make sure you have a proper rain jacket, make sure you have dry insulating materials, and make sure you use them when necessary. Don't assume the rain is brief and temps will hold, they never do ;)

I have found using the "free" plastic UPS bags that are cut down to sock size is a very effective and tough vapor barrier to keep your feet dry.

Dry is relative because sweat does make your socks damp.

Fine while hiking, but you can get a small chill when you stop moving and generating heat.

Better than soaking wet socks in freezing conditions.

The key thing are these bags are very tough and near impossible to wear a hole in.

Tony

I see a few people in this thread talking about using plastic bags over your socks. That's not the proper way to use a vapor barrier though, because it keeps the vapor from your body in your sock rather than away from your insulation.

If you want to keep your insulation dry using plastic bags, you need two of them. Sandwich your thick insulating sock in between the two. That will keep vapor in and rain out. You might want to wear a thin liner sock next to skin for comfort.

del

Mitchell, I don't think anyone is talking about vapor barriers. There talking about using a plastic bag as a waterproof oversock when using non waterproof shoes.

Plastic bags though… has anyone here actually used plastic bags over their socks? I tried that once and my feet would literally slip out of my shoes.

Dustin, I've found that if neoprene socks get wet they act as super conductors into the cold snow or ice.
They work fine for the rain without stepping through snow.

Just my experience with them.

"Plastic bags though… has anyone here actually used plastic bags over their socks?"

Been there. Done that. It wasn't exactly for freezing rain conditions.

I was trekking in Nepal during monsoons. Once I had been sloshing along the trails for a few days, I knew that I needed something better than mid-cut hikers and wool socks. So, I used thin synthetic socks with plastic bags over that. Then heavy wool socks over that. Then the mid-cut hikers.

My feet did stay a little sweaty (which is exactly the purpose behind vapor barriers, if you are going that route in cold weather), but they stayed warmer than if they were just soaking in cold wet socks and shoes.

–B.G.–

http://blog.owareusa.com/2011/11/14/using-light-boots-in-the-snow-and-wet-vapor-barrier-socks/

also

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=27482&disable_pagination=1

Justin,

I mentioned that using the plastic UPS bags on my feet were like a vapor barrier.

The advice about using a thin sock liner, plastic bag, and then sock over the plastic bag is sound advice.

I have hiked for a few hours using the plastic bags over my Injinji socks.

Yes, it can be a little slippery.

I had to tighten up my laces on my trail runners.

Having shoes that are snug fitting so you are not sliding around would be important.

I have hiked with a lot of mud caked on my trail runners, used this setup while snow mobiling, and in the rain for short duration.

While in the mud, my friend, Jeremy, was saying how his feet were freezing in the cold, mud while I felt pretty darn good with my feet in the plastic bags.

Tony

> Personally, I'm simply not willing to hike without any waterproofing on my feet in freezing rain.
The secret here is to keep your legs warm. That may mean some sort of overtrousers and/or light fleece trousers.
Warm legs => warm blood to the feet => warm feet. The 'warm blood' bit is crucial.

That said, wading through lots of snow-melt creeks can be a bit tiring :-) In that case it may be worth while using bread bags over liner socks inside thick wool socks. The thick wool socks will squeeze 'dry' and warm up quite quickly. Yes, the bags can be a bit slippery.

Goretex (GTX) shoes just keep all the water inside your shoe. Seriously bad news. GTX shoes do work in the snow when it is definitely well below freezing.

Neoprene socks … my experience has not been good. They seem to make my feet cold.

Cheers

For socks, light wool or synthetic underneath Rocky GoreTex socks have worked well for me. Polyester liner socks are great for preventing blisters in these conditions. I've also used wool socks without a waterproof layer. That works for me, but it's colder.

For a rain jacket, I use eVent or DriDucks. Keep eVent clean (wash with a non-detergent soap) and renew the DWR when water no longer beads up on it. I just wear the jacket over a polyester t-shirt, not adding fleece layers until around the mid-20's.

Pants are important too. Normal hiking pants used with a light synthetic base layer and a good DWR applied can often work, but even better is light softshell pants. I also like my Rab eVent gaiters in these conditions and colder.

Plastic bags over wool socks will work because your feet will get fairly damp from perspiration, and wool is warm when damp. Probably the best variation of this is to put your shoe insoles inside the plastic bag so that they don't slide. Oven bags are more durable. Gore Tex socks don't breathe super well anyway. I've also used Certain Dri antiperspirant on my feet. That was a slight improvement in comfort, but not really worth the hassle.

I use a closed cell foam float coat.

Winter here in the Southeast is wet and humid with temps often hovering around freezing.
The hiking here is practically all under tree cover, so in cooler temps hiking in even heavy rain is manageable in a ventilated rainsuit(full side-zip pants, jacket with pit zips and velcro tabs on the zipper flap).
To keep from overheating, ditching the clothes and just wearing the rainsuit over lightweight baselayers has worked for me.
eVent gaiters under the rain pants, but over waterproof shoes, or ventilated shoes with 2mm wetsocks over lightweight Smartwool PhDs if hiking in or often crossing water-that also worked well my first time snowshoeing in knee deep snow punctuated by multiple creek crossings.

> wool is warm when damp.
Bit of a myth there. The heat liberated is negligeable, and wet wool is little different from wet synthetic – excpet it takes days to dry.

Cheers

Research showing that wool is perceived as warmer

ABSTRACT
We have conducted wearer trials demonstrating that human subjects can perceive
the heat of sorption of water vapor by wool garments in typical winter conditions. We
found that this heat of sorption causes wearers to rate wool garments as warmer under
certain conditions than materials with little or no heat of sorption, such as acrylic. If the garments are thoroughly dried before use, the full benefit of this heating effect is realized.