Paradox/SeekOutside Unaweep Pics

Great work with this thread Eli.

I think it looks fine without the talon, how you have it in your first pic. I don't think base compression is really too much of an issue for most backpackers with a frame like this. There will be a tiny bit (the strap angle is reminiscent of the larger One Planet (Australian) packs like the McMillan) and the upper straps will do most of the rest. Its not hard to let your sleeping bag loft out to make up the rest.

Haul loops: A common waste of time IMHO. Its not hard to get used to putting a pack on without them, and generally its a bad idea to actually haul using just that loop anyway. If you were hauling more than 20lbs with this pack (ie roping it up a small cliff face or scramble) you run your haul rope through the shoulder straps and around some of the others up top. I've heard of haul loops on even very respectably made packs (with top quality 12oz ripstop canvas fabric…) failing under 40-60lbs. The only way around that is to build them very strong and bomber, but that adds weight.

I should specify that I use a 24oz Camelbak Podium bottle. I bet something bigger would be a chore to get in and out.

Order in. Thanks again Eli, you helped my decision making process a whole lot. I love the design approach of this pack, and it sounds from the reports here that it's delivering on the engineering/ergonomics claims. I'm hoping that this will be my new go-to pack for heavier loads in winter, or for desert hiking when I have to haul a lot of water.

Thx Adam.

On the haul loops: Yeah, I just never noticed I used them until I didn't have them. I can bring it up by the shoulder straps, but it seems to loosen (or tighten) the shoulder strap height "tri-glide(?)" when I do it like that. Maybe I'm doing something wrong.

If they were going to make a haul loop, I suppose they would have to make sure that it could handle up to 120 lbs or whatever this pack is rated to. And like you said would add a lot of weight.

I got the pack the pack knowing I would only be carrying 35 lbs at the most, but I understand why they didn't include one.

@ Ralph: Nice! What size/color did you get?

@Phillip: The hydration talon fit my full 3L platypus pretty easy.

Eli, glad you're enjoying the pack. I'll respond to a few of the questions posed here.

Haul Loop – we can add one as a custom option, but decided to go without simply because it isn't necessary. The shoulder harness kind of "floats" when the pack isn't worn, and it is very easy and natural to use the base of the shoulder harness as a haul loop when picking the pack up. And it's a lot stronger than a haul loop box stitched into the encasement fabric would be. On the Evolution the top pack bag connection straps form a haul loop, but I normally find myself using the harness there as well.

Talons – The packs are designed to be used with a Talon. The Talon refocuses the compression, spreads the compression, and adds a compression panel plus organizational pocket. However, the buckles are keyed so you can run the packs without a Talon. Both the Base and Hydro Talons have a buckle at the top. In the photos mentioned I imagine I tucked it under to look cleaner. The Talons don't settle or sag down however. The top straps do a good job of keeping it in place. The top buckle allows you to run the Evolution without a pack bag and still use an over the top strap.

Bottle Pockets – I used two 32 oz Powerade bottles last week without issue. The pockets aren't very slanted, but you can slant the bottles inside the pocket. The pocket fabric is very stiff, which makes it fairly easy to replace the bottle in the pocket once you get used to the arrangement. Limited shoulder flexibility affects this of course.

Eli, thanks for posting the photos and details. Very helpful.

I've been thinking about ordering one of these packs. Hip transfer is important for me with any pack weights getting much over 20 lbs. The pulling down on my shoulders and traps over the course of long 20+ mile days wears on me. Thinking, based on what I've read, the Unaweep might be a solution that can serve duty for heavier winter and desert treks too.

There's minimal details/reports out there so far for this pack, so I appreciate everyone's feedback, photos, initial reports, etc.

Would like to see additional details and/or hear additional thoughts on the adjustable torso length and the hip belt comfort/construction. A common problem for me is hipbelt slippage… even with ULA-style belts.

Glad folks are discussing the bottle pockets too. I don't fear I'll have trouble reaching the pockets but I'm certainly interested in confirming which size bottles will fit. I mostly use 32oz Powerade bottles; according to Nathan (in the post above), those will work.

I'd like to see a talon offered that's just a mesh top-loading pocket with a solid fabric backing on it (like HMG's Porter stuff pocket). I like to stuff wet items and small odds and ends in it that I might access throughout the day. A zippered pocket on the talon is superfluous for me.

Don't really have an opinion on the haul loop. Might be "nice" to have but can certainly make due without it.

Also not totally clear on the concern with the load lifters. I understand a few have modified their attachment point but I'm having trouble visualizing the difference between the "stock" configuration and the modified version.

Thanks again everyone.

Not to beat a dead horse, but Nico (and anyone else) I've got a number of photos and thoughts on the pack here: http://bedrockandparadox.com/2014/07/23/paradox-unaweep-the-category-killer/

Among other things you can see the haul loop I added. I'm in the pro category here; I find it more convenient for hefting a heavier pack, and like the added security for those rare occasions when I am hauling the pack on a rope. The harness is surely plenty strong, but it is ultimately attached with plastic buckles (albeit six of them), and that just doesn't sit well with my paranoia.

It's difficult to talk in anything other than personal opinions here, but for me the Paradox belt blows all others (haven't tried them all, obviously) out of the water. As Philip T has said elsewhere, on the face of it there's nothing fancy, just basics done well: soft enough foam to cup your hips without bruising, a buckle cinch which tightens evenly, a shape that sucks into the small of the back, and a broad and exclusively downwards pulling attachment which all but eliminates torque on your hips. I think it is the last factor which is most important. When I've carried heavy-for-me loads in the Unaweep (35 pounds or more) my legs and to a lesser extent core get sore, but my hips do not.

The load lifters are sewn on a bit above the ends of the pockets which hold the frame. The idea here (as explained to me by Kevin Timm) is that as the tubular frame is completely rigid top to bottom, it's better to engineer a bit of give into the load lifters by having this slack in the fabric. Users can thus have a bit of give in the load lifters, or cinch them a bit tighter and have it completely rigid. I prefer to run my load lifters very loose, even when I have quite a bit of weight, and thus appreciate this arrangement. I hadn't even thought about it one way or the other until Philip brought it up in the aforementioned post, when after reflection I realized it suited my preferences.

Weird, I thought I just posted this but it doesn't show up, so I'll try again:

The thing I like about the Unaweep (at least the 4800) is that I can easily fit a Bearikade Weekender in horizontally – no cramming needed, it just slides right in. In fact, you can put it in vertically and easily turn it to sit horizontally within the pack if you so chose.

Hi Nico,

I suffer from the same shoulder and traps problem when I hike for more than 2 hours with 30+ pounds. I first tried the Fusion 65 while a huge improvement over my previous packs, my shoulders were still sore after a full day. I have only done one long day with the Unaweep but no sore shoulders. Plus, zero hip belt slippage! I will know more with in a month as I have a few week long hikes planned.

I hear ya on a stuff pocket talon. So, I'm building my own.

One thing I found surprising was the Unaweep feels lighter than my other packs even though it is actually heavier.

OP, thanks for the pictures and information on the cuben version of this pack. Using the weights you've provided, I get:

Cuben 3900 Unaweep without talon: 38.3 oz
Cuben 3900 Unaweep with normal cuben talon: 42 oz (estimated)
Cuben 4800 Unaweep with normal cuben talon: 43 oz (estimated)

This makes the weight of a cuben Unaweep very competitive with the HMG 4400 Porter (currently listed at 37.6 oz). Granted, the 4400 Porter has hipbelt pockets and uses heavier duty 150D cuben hybrid fabric. But the Unaweep has side pockets.

Does any one have the weight of the Unaweep frame and pack bag broken down? Or is it pretty similar to what Dave C wrote about the Paradox Evolution in his review?

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/paradox-evolution-review-chenault.html#.U-OA5n477CU

John, the UL frames average around 7 oz or a bit less.

So just under 2 lbs for the frame + hipbelt + shoulder harness?

Frame 7 + Hipbelt ~10 + harness ~6 = 23 oz give or take. Some suspension components are sewn into the packbag on the Unaweep.

"This makes the weight of a cuben Unaweep very competitive with the HMG 4400 Porter (currently listed at 37.6 oz). Granted, the 4400 Porter has hipbelt pockets and uses heavier duty 150D cuben hybrid fabric. But the Unaweep has side pockets."

And, as I mentioned previously, the Unaweep will fit my Weekender horizontally, neither my Porter nor my Elemental Horizons Aquilo will. It's the major reason I bought the Unaweep and sold the Porter.

While on the topic of bear canisters- the 3900 will fit a bv500 vertically but not horizontally.

Here is a BV500 in my 3900 Unaweep:

With my net tent and shelter tucked around it:

The compression setup that I'm probably going to stick with for using the pack without a talon:

Top straps connected to each other, bottom straps connected to each other, middle straps running down to the load shelf.

Re: hipbelt
No slipping so far but I've only used the pack on one trip with a sub 30 pound load so take my feedback with a grain of salt. I didn't experience any signs of slipping while testing it with about 45 pounds at home. For reference I am 5'8" with a 30" waist and I've had slippage issues with every pack that I've used in the past.

That is the same setup I usually use when not using a talon. Sometimes i use the top straps instead depending on load, however I use a talon 80 percent of the time. I like to cut the ounces, but honestly I like to balance efficiency as well. For me, it's easier to stuff common items in a talon 90 percent of the time.

I take it there is interest in a mesh talon ? We would prefer to use a more durable mesh than the lighter stretchy stuff. Any comments / desires ?

Thanks
Kevin

A more durable mesh would be my choice too. Since most of my hiking is with the family all sorts of stuff gets jammed into the front pocket :-)

Cheers,

Curtis

Kevin, I'm also interested in a mesh talon. I wouldn't buy a pack for hiking, if it didn't have a mesh front pocket. My preferred place to dry wet raingear.

I'm pretty sure I'll be buying a unaweep when I have the funds!

@ Kevin Timm- I can't imagine there'd be much weight difference between the various mesh choices for a talon, so I'd prefer the stronger mesh over the thinner, stretchy stuff. The thin, stretchy stuff catches and tears too easily.

Also interested in if/when additional Xpac colors will be offered. I'd be keen on the Coyote Brown if that becomes an option.

Thanks.

Thanks for the feedback. Coyote VX21 is available and we have a limited quantity.
Let us know if you want coyote. It should be an order able option soon

Just to keep the thread/discussion going, I thought Phillip made some interesting mods to his Unaweep, as discussed in one of the other BPL Unaweep Threads

I thought all of these modifications were creative. I particularly like the idea of using daisy chains on the load shelf to drop the placement of the talon on the pack body and the inclusion of daisy chains on the shoulder straps to better fix the sternum strap location and/or offer a place to hang a chest pack from.

For those of us not trained in the dark arts of sewing, I’m curious to know if there are options to have an Unaweep customized as part of an initial order to include these or other features.

Thanks, -N.

If the frame + hipbelt + harness weighs 23 oz, I could see this being a fun platform for a MYOG pack, i.e. you could try sewing up various packbags that all attach to the same basic frame.

I don't own a Unaweep yet, so maybe I don't fully understand how difficult or easy making your own packbag for the frame would be, but I imagine you could get the total weight down to almost 2 lbs or so (as they've already nearly done with the hybrid cuben fabric). A couple ideas to save weight are to attach the back pocket directly and use less compression straps.

Edit: hopefully someone will chime in with how feasible they think it would be to make your own packbag for the Unaweep…

I've made several bags for the Seek Outside frame and harness, and it's a not especially difficult proposition. Having a properly tapered backpanel with strong enough encasements for the frame are the only requirements.

I recently finished a ~90 liter bag, which with durable fabrics and a full feature set weighs in at 24 ounces. Pretty great to get that big of a pack with such great load carry for 3 pounds.

The bottle pockets easily hold a 64oz iced tea/gatoraid type bottle or 2 liter soda bottle. Not small at all. Really like this as I often do dry 2-nite hikes. I had shock cord put in the pocket cinch as part of a custom order per suggestion by DaveC. Will share more later

The water bottle pockets definitely hold at least a 32 oz Gatorade for me, when the bag is moderately full.

However, I tried filling the pack pretty tight (38lbs), and the 32 oz Gatorade bottle would not come close to fitting because the inside of the pocket was bulging into the pocket. I know this is probably an issue with most packs though.

Not that I will be hauling around a 38lb/filled to the brim pack 99% of the time.

Just my experience.