Sea to Summit Ultra-Sil Nano Poncho (note, new 15D fabric)

[Adam Kilpatrick]

http://www.seatosummit.com/products/display/6

Anyone seen one in the flesh yet? They are out of stock at Prolite gear and a couple of other places so there must be a few out there. I did a search on BPL and couldn't find anything yet.

Weight is good, in the prolite video they say it weighed about 1.5oz under spec, so ~6.6oz

I'm very interested in the rear draw cord feature. How it works in poncho mode and if there are issues with it as a tarp.

[HkNewman]

I used it and as a shelter, it's a regular rectangular tarp with some guy outs for a flying diamond and lean-to. Experimenting, I found the dimensions are smallish for an A-frame trying to get the sides to the ground. Practice before using on a trip though.

As rainwear the coverage is good and the snaps on both sides allow the user to choose their protection. The drawcord works to some extent if users remember to use it. The sil has a gossamer feel to it vs even other sils and it is very light.

It is a more basic design than others but I'll be letting mine go here shortly on GS if you want one at a low price (got it for hot weather trips but now avoiding hot weather in favor of cool to cold)

[J-L]

Sea to Summit also uses the same 15D fabric in their Escapist shelters:

Tarps: http://www.seatosummit.com/products/display/235

Inner: http://www.seatosummit.com/products/display/236

They specify the fabric is Sil/Pu-coated and has a hydrostatic head of only 1200mm. It might work okay for a tarp, but I'm not sure it would keep you dry in a poncho. It seems like water could easily be forced through the fabric given the low hydrostatic head, but maybe that is not an issue in practice (I've never used or seen the stuff).

The weight on their 10×10 tarp is pretty good at 12.3 oz

[Adam Kilpatrick]

Thanks for the insights.

1200mm is a fair bit for silnylon, most of them out there would fail at that. Of course its hard to know how accurate that is. Though PU coatings are generally pretty good. Given that spray gets through and the material isn't breathable, personally I'm not fussed if a poncho is not quite 100% waterproof, and I can deal with a bit of tarp misting.

Local shop manager might get one in for me to have a look at. He reckons the guy who designed it is from South Australia…

[Dale Wambaugh]

The drawcords are interesting. In their description they describe using them to take up the slack when a pack is not worn. That is usually done by folding the extra 12"-14" material under and securing it with snaps or Velcro. It would be great to see how it works with a pack on, I use a cord belt to that end and having built-in drawstrings sounds good.

Taped seams is a quality touch.

As far as coverage, ponchos are a very minimal shelter. There isn't enough coverage for anything more than a vertical shower. If you get a blow, there is going to be an opening. There's no way you are going to get full ground contact down the sides of an A-frame pitch. A lean-to works unless the wind changes direction— 3Am is about right :) A poncho and bivy make a better combo and you get some bug protection too.

This is where a design like a Gatewood Cape excels. You get even better rain gear and 360 degree shelter coverage.

I carry a GoLite poncho and an AMK space-blanket bivy for my day hiking rain gear and emergency shelter. I would use a breathable top bivy with a bug screen like the Ti Goat Ptarmigan for planned poncho-tarping. Another alternative is to use a fully waterproof bivy with a poncho protecting the head end for getting in and out, cooking and general sanity in bad weather.

[Adam Kilpatrick]

Yeah its rare to see silnylon with taped seams in anything. I do wonder whether its overkill though, especially on edge seams…what's the point? A small bit of silicone seam sealing at the tie outs is all that's needed for strength, and waterproofness isn't an issue right on the edge. But I deserve the right to be wrong :-)

Still be nice to see a lighter Gatewood Cape…

[Adam Kilpatrick]

Actually, I just realised that the latest version of the Golite Poncho is probably made of the same material:

http://www.golite.com/Poncho-Tarp-P885.aspx

Says it has snaps for folding up rear like most normal ponchos.

1 inch wider, Length same as listed.

What's the bet that the dimensions are identical to the S2S poncho, and that these were actually made in the same factory, from the same material, but with ever so slightly different specs? On price the Golite kills the S2S, pity its out of stock.

[Adam Kilpatrick]

Went to my favourite local store to check it out, they had put it aside for me so it would be there when I got there.

Really nice, though more in heinsight I realise that some of the really nice "features", well, I dunno.

[My experiences with ponchos is more from my early scout days of hiking, when I used vinyl ones from army disposal stores. Actually got rained on pretty decently on my first two overnight walks back as an 11 year old so got good early practise :-) I haven't used a modern one yet in action as a garment nor tarp. Plenty of tarp camping experience.]

Some notes:

1. The fabric is really nice. Feels quite thin compared to regular silnylons, but somehow it doesn't give the impression it would be any more fragile in use.

2. Someone in store mentioned that they were given a sample by S2S a long time ago (to keep) but when they pulled it out the PU had already completely hydrolysed! This kinda scares me a bit with it. We talked about this for a while. I've heard of PU doing this, but the conditions probably have to be pretty extreme, eg high temps and humidity, stored away for a while. This was a sample so maybe it was a different fabric too. In any case S2S wouldn't have let this slide and if it was a risk they would deal with it. The same fabric is in probably 10,000 or more stuff sacks sold in Australia alone in the last year or so, god knows how many internationally, and I haven't heard of this happening. If it was a problem I'm sure there would have been a thread about it on BPL by now. So probably just a weird once off with this "sample". I'm sure its totally trustworthy now and this wouldn't put me off buying it.

3. The seams are nice. Definitely nicely done. But I think it could be a lot simpler and lighter. Its a rolled seam, with the tape presumably inside the roll (not taped over the stitching like on a typical taped PU tent fly), so I think this is pretty overkill and pointless. Really, the tape is a waste of time there on the edge seams, its perforated anyway, it would just supply a bit of pointless extra strength. Even the double stitching is overkill really and they could have made the seam much skinner and with a single line. When I compare it to my bombproof, perfectly made trailstar, this poncho has the-seam-that-will-never-die, deserves its own movie starring Bruce Willis.

4. One problem these seams cause, apart from adding weight and cost, is that the seam is much wider, and with the roll width of the fabric, no doubt this probably wastes a good inch or so of tarp width they could have had. This is a super skinny tarp as is.

5. The tie outs are bomber. They are bonded on as well as sewn through with the seam edge (good). No stitching around the reinforcement but its not needed with good bonding. However, again, I can't help but think its overkill. Hard to tell (I should have brought over a couple of different packs to compare fabric) but it was probably something like 200 to 500 denier extra heavy coating fabric. They could have just used the same fabric, folded it at the edge where they put the grossgrain to add another layer, and done a circle of slightly bigger size. End strength would have been about the same, probably lighter, probably cheaper for them.

6. The rear drawcord feature is interesting. It is simple. Basically a tube about 2 feet long up the back middle [image drawing a ridgeline down the tarp. Start at the back end, go up two feet towards the hood. Stop, thats your tube]. It has a drawcord attached at the edge, it runs up the tube, then there's just a simple cord lock. To raise the back you just pull the cord in the cord lock to bunch up the tube. Straight forward. But again, I'm just not happy with it. The cord lock isn't the smallest of the mini's out there, and the cord is maybe 2mm cord, they could have done that so much lighter. The idea is great, but as its only in the middle, it only really drags up the middle of the tarp. It doesn't go up far enough, so the two corners don't really get a chance to lift off the ground. Without a pack on (I'm 175cm and didn't try it on with a pack) those corners are too low, while the middle is just right. With even a small pack on though, I would personally never use the cord as it would all be up at a nice height. And really its not dragging on the ground like an oversized gatewood cape would anyway. I think if they want to keep this feature in future models, then they should do it properly with a longer draw cord so that more lifts from the ground, and also go with the lighter cords and cord locks. Alternatively, a straight line doesn't quite cut it. Instead they could do a U shape with two lines running more towards the corners and the cord lock coming out in the middle. But then the weight and complexity is building up. Heck, lets just put in a couple of snaps or a place to connect the corner tie outs to and be done with it.

7. The hood was great, no complaints there. Draw cord was super smooth and easy. Closed up really nice. Brim was perfect.

This probably sounds like a really negative review in this thread but really, its not. This is a great poncho. I didn't weigh it (didnt take scales) but its light, probably lighter than its spec. Price is about right if not a little cheaper than some of the competition. If you don't want to build a poncho yourself this would be a great option.

However, this has now led me to know a lot more about what I want in a poncho, and so, I have fabric on the way and will build my own. Definitely going to enjoy this.

[Ben]

I have two of the regular nylon versions. We are off for a weekend hike in a couple of weeks. The weather should be quite pleasant so I'm considering taking these and a bug net instead of our hubba hubba. Would it be easy enough to put two of these together for a two person shelter? I'll have to get out in the yard and have a play. It's only an overnight hike so it would open up the possibility of taking a daypack each instead of our hiking packs.

Benen

[Sam Farrington]

Thanks very much for alerting me to this 15D coated fabric. Using an Escapist large tarp, the yield comes to about $30 per running 60" wide yard. That is about the same as Cuben from Zpacks that is 54" wide. The color choices are nice also. The crunch will be how well the 1200 HH holds up in use. I think the weight will be around 1 oz per sq yd, but we'll see.

[Adam Kilpatrick]

Sam,

I thought I found an online sources to basically this material a few weeks ago, but now for the life of me I can't find it! 15D, Sil one side, PU the other, 1200mm.

In any case I now have some Argon Sil which I'm going to build a poncho with instead. Its not much more than 1oz/yard. It will come out a smidge wider than the S2S poncho as my edge seams will be slimmer, and I'm going to give it a few extra inches of length just to be sure.

[Sam Farrington]

Adam,
Please take note that GoLite makes a 15D Poncho Tarp for around $60.
For some reason, they keep pulling if off and putting it back on the market.
Not to mention that they have been having problems with their website.
But when they get it all straightened out, you might want to take a look at it.
It is billed as having a breathable coating (it is not silcoat), fire retardance treatment, is around the same HH, 1200mm, and the material with coat is around 1.1 oz/sq/yd (weighed it myself).

[Adam Kilpatrick]

Hi Sam

yeah I've looked a lot at the Golite poncho too (and yeah they sure struggle with supply with just about all their products…). I think I mention it further up in this thread, but I have deep suspicions that its made by the same manufacturer and of the same material as the S2S poncho in China. The tie outs on it look pretty poxy. There was one for sale on gear swap a couple of months ago for cheap but with a tie out torn out. Pictures showed that the tie out wasn't reinforced at all apart from the edge seam and I think was only stitched using the edge seam! Pretty poor show. Certainly doesn't take much to put a small patch of silnylon reinforcing on and bar tack stitch it…I'm guessing that would cost about $1 per poncho in said Chinese factory. In short, despite the super cheap price, unless I was willing to re-do every tie out on it myself, I wouldn't buy the Golite poncho. Well, it would have to be even cheaper than $60.

Cheers

[Sam Farrington]

Adam,
I was just looking at it for the fabric, so it's too bad I missed the ad for the damaged one. As I mentioned, the fabric coat is a waterproof breathable polyurethane similar to that used on many low cost rain shells (See Alan Dixon's article on BPL about WPB's), so it is not silcoated, in whole or in part.
Anyway, I will now be using the S2S if the fabric it is durable and as light. So thank you, again for the heads up. For light tarps, have you looked at the Arrowhead tarps?

[Adam Kilpatrick]

Are you sure about the Sil? I'm pretty confident that the S2S fabric does have a light Sil coating on the outer, with the PU on the inside. This is the same as the Golite fabric

As the Sil is light it would still allow some vapour through, though to be honest I wouldn't rate it as a WPB. I think the MVTR (or whatever measure) would be rather extremely low to the point that you wouldn't notice the difference between it and a full Sil coated silnylon, especially on a poncho or a tarp. Maybe sitting still in mild conditions in a jacket all done up. Better than nothing of course! :-)

Arrowhead tarps-thanks for the tip :-)

[Sam Farrington]

Adam,
Yes I'm sure that the coat on the Golite is not sil as in 'silnylon.'
The first thing I did was test it with a dab of polyurethane and it glommed onto it totally and unpeelably. With any silnylon, it would have peeled right off.

And surprise, the same appears true of the S2S which I just received today. I couldn't locate an old bottle of Elmer's GlueMax PU glue, so used a dab of McNett Aquaseal, and it although it is not totally dry yet, looks like it is going to stick solid on both sides. So I think the S2S has a polyurethane coat, also. The business about the polyurethane/silicone combo is misleading, I think, when the coat is for all intents and purposes a polyurethane one. There may be DWR sprays that work on both silnylon and PU nylon, I don't know. But DWR is not a waterproof coating.

But as I mentioned, I don't care what the coating is, as long as it is light, and remains waterproof to spec. So far, that appears to be the case. To weigh the fabric, I'll first need to cut out the tie-outs and reinforcements along with the seam tape, as these are so well bonded, removing them by force and/or heat would damage the surrounding material. And what's tricky about measuring the weight of nylon, is that because it is constantly expanding and contracting, the weight per square yard constantly changes.

I would not totally discount GoLite's claim of breathability. While most manufacturers have now gone to the so-called 2.5 coatings for the cheapest rainwear, it was not so long ago that many brands, like Red Ledge (at Campmor), Cabella's and many others sold waterproof breathable jackets with urethane coatings that looked exactly like the coat on the GoLite. Alan Dixon's article has charts and graphs that show that these coatings were moderately effective, certainly far better than a vapor barrier, and that is why I mentioned the article, and recommend it.

The reason GoLite may have been pulling and replacing this item for the last several years may be that it has been improving the coating, or lightening the denier, or both. However, I would agree that the tie-outs on the S2S are much sturdier, although the dark colored cord is of no use, as it will not show up in the dark.
But you could very easily replace the cord, cord being a whole other topic that has been addressed at length on BPL, to say the least. The bottom line seems to be that the best deals are at the Arborist's sites.

So I think we will both be happy with purchases form S2S, you so long as you are not looking for a WPB poncho, and me so long as I'm not looking for a silcoat.

I do regret the expense, and most people would probably think me totally nuts to spend the price of Cuben for the nylon fabric for one solo tent. If you could recall the source of the similar fabric you mentioned in an earlier post on this thread, it would be a great boon to MYOGers who are looking for something more in the range of $5-15 per running yard.

[Adam Kilpatrick]

I'm searching and searching but still can't find the source. I feel like such an idiot for not bookmarking it now. It was a cottage manufacturer/supplier but not one of the big ones like seattle fabrics, rockywoods, etc. It might have been pulled.

Interesting notes above Sam. Thanks for those insights.

I can understand why you would be willing to spend cuben prices for what you want. Cuben is not the be all and end all.

[Adam Kilpatrick]

http://www.exped.com/usa/en/product-category/ponchos/bivy-poncho-ul

Exped have a sil/PU 15D fabric they are using which they claim is 1500mm HH.

[J-L]

Hi Samuel, could you post an estimated weight of the fabric from S2S when you get it? FWIW, I got some 20D silnylon from Ripstop by the Roll and it came out to around 1.2oz/sqyd, plus or minus 0.02oz. Thickness is in between Argon sil and normal 30D sil. Slipperiness is comparable to normal 30D sil, but not as slippery as Argon sil.

Curious why you don't want to use cuben?

[Sam Farrington]

"Exped have a sil/PU 15D fabric they are using which they claim is 1500mm HH"
The Exped poncho-tarp is roughly 5 by 8 feet and lists at 13 oz. Please compare with S2S 15D Escapist Large tarp that is just shy of 10 by 10 feet, and weighs around 14 oz, and that is with the 8 linelocs and tie-out cords.

"… could you post an estimated weight of the fabric from S2S"
First, I need to cut out and remove the 8 bonded plastic tie-out reinforcements, and removed the taped seam by cutting the tarp into two halves. Then I can weigh the fabric and get an accurate figure.

Re: Comparing the Argon, Ripstop By the Roll, and remnants taken from Terra Nova, GoLite and S2S tarps. Was concerned after seeing Richard's follow up tests on the Argon, and the 1.2 oz stuff on Ripstop By the Roll was taken off the site shortly after the first posting about it on BPL. That left me with the tarp remnants, of which GoLite is out of stock. That left the Terra Nova, a true silnylon that is spec'd at 3000mmHH, and the S2S that is spec'd at 1200mmHH. The Terra Nova is about 1.1 oz/sy. As noted, no accurate weight yet on the S2S weight, but it should be between 1.05 and 1.15 osy I think. So the tent will have the very dark green T-N sil for a floor, and the light green S2S for a canopy. That's around $300 just for the fabric, so I can plainly see why folks would take their chances with the Argon or RBTR. It might be wise, though, to personally check the weights, and the HH at least when new, before placing too much reliance on the seller's specs. Richard has a protocol posted on BPL for accepting swatches for HH testing.
You might search his posts first to see if he has tested the material already.

Looking at the HH used by Big Agnes and some others for canopies, I think 1200mm HH is sufficient for a canopy IF the HH holds up under use, a big IF.

As for the Cuben, I don't want to start another debate. There are enough of them on BPL already. For MYOG, I like to work with nylon given its drape, sewability, and elasticity (which improves strength under stress as well as ability to achieve tautness). Drawbacks with nylon can be that it loves to absorb water, which is a real drawback for a tent. Some may recall packing soaked nylon tents. Then there is the sagging. Only a good coating on both sides largely eliminates the soaking and sagging. Even after looking for best quality, I'm not sure this risk can be entirely avoided.

There are similar risks with Cuben, some types of which have poor water resistance, especially after a bit of use. So since there are quality related risks with both Cuben and nylon, I prefer the latter for the reasons mentioned. None of this is new. BPL Editor Roger Caffin has often mentioned the comparative risks and qualities.

[J-L]

The 20D silnylon is still on Ripstop by the Roll's site.

[Sam Farrington]

John,
if I read the site correctly, that is all 1.1 oz nylon with a silcoat that brings it up to 1.24 oz/sq/yd. I was looking for 15D nylon under 1.12 oz with coating.

Please note that uncoated 30D nylon has been available for years that weighs 1.1 oz.
With a good silcoat, it usually runs around 1.36 oz or more.

So RBTR is saying it has a 1.1 oz nylon, 20D in this case. OK, if it is the same weight with a lower denier, it may have a higher thread count. That's to the good.
But it still must have a thinner silcoat to come up from 1.1 to 1.24, not 1.36.
Granted, a thinner coat could be as effective if much better quality.

Still, I'm looking to get closer to 1 oz to make a shelter with a weight more competitive with Cuben.

[Adam Kilpatrick]

The new Type 6.6 cordura sil/pu nylon that gossamer gear are using sounds interesting. Its part of their new Murmur.

0.97 oz/sqyd

"Main body of tough-but-light 20d Type 6.6 Cordura Nylon, coated both sides, one with silicone, other with PU/silicone blend, for optimal strength/weight/waterproofness ratio."

On a pack, I would argue that like a groundsheet, you really need higher HH than on most shelters as the fabric is under stress and pressure from gear inside the pack. So maybe it is ok? Just getting it though would be just about impossible!

I've been super busy lately, but am going to crack out the Argon Sil tonight and start on my poncho. Cutting out tonight and bonding patches on. In a week I'll sew the edge seam and the grossgrain on for the tie outs :-)

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