Why is this forum so inactive?

Yes, cottage industries push boundaries. The whole of camping used to be a recreational offshoot of military and homesteading experiences with surplus equipment. The Recreational Equipment Inc Co-op for instance used to only import serious climbing and mountaineering gear.

What I am saying is that while UL equipment has become fashionable, much of SUL technique and equipment is straight home brew.

From what I see on the trails that I hike, I would conclude that UL (by our strict definition of 10 pounds or less base weight) is barely and grudgingly gaining some traction. Pack weights do appear to be getting somewhat lighter overall, but humongous loads are still quite common. The market is still very small when it comes to people willing and able to plunk down $600 for a Cuben shelter and all the other gear, and to do all the homework necessary for implementing UL – and especially SUL – techniques.

I briefly flirted with SUL with weekend trips etc. It was a fun and interesting fling while it lasted, but generally speaking i've become more interested in durability over saving weight–mostly because of my conscience and "eco" oriented side, but also my cheap, thrifty side.

There are times when durability and SUL can go together, but usually that requires a lot of money. Sure, who wouldn't love an all Dyneema or all Spectra pack? But i can't afford it. I would also love an all Spectra or Dyneema Windjacket, but they don't exist and MYOG on such an item is next to impossible.

Plus, i'm not all that interested in getting caught up in labels and boundaries. This doesn't mean that i don't look for creative ways to save more weight, or come up with better solutions for things or add flexibility to my systems. I still do, and like thinking about new ideas. I enjoy the creative act involved.

The only time i would seriously start focusing on SUL again, is if i was planning a Thru type Hike. I wouldn't necessarily go SUL, but i would use techniques and ideas from same to drop more weight provided i could do so cheaply and without sacrificing much durability.

Now that i work at a school again, i could possibly do a long hike again over the summer. Just need to find a cooler and/or drier place to go. Not a fan of the AT in summer.

"I can see how SUL has more in common with cow herders, Lord Baden-Powell's proto-scouts, and fur trappers and other frontiersmen of old, what with the minimal, homemade gear and rather informal relationship with the outdoors, but SUL just does not evoke that heritage. It could. It should."

This is what makes me pursue lighter weights. There is something magical about the image of explorers going into the unknown with a few loaves of bread wrapped up in a wool blanket. I know that as my pack reaches a weight that feels too light at the time, I feel exposed and am fearful, but then that exposure makes me really face the land and then more deeply experience it. For me, there are some serious differences between UL and SUL. UL allows you to just carry lighter weight versions of more traditional backpacking gear, but not really change your backpacking lifestyle. The approach towards UL is often eliminating extraneous items. But SUL you start with nothing and add only as required. You can't simply replace items for lighter versions that are functionally equivalent, you expose yourself more to the environment and must have a more intimate relationship with what little gear you have to separate yourself from it

> There is something magical about the image of explorers going into the unknown with a
> few loaves of bread wrapped up in a wool blanket.
I think you mean 'fairy tale' rather than 'magical' maybe?

> a weight that feels too light at the time, I feel exposed and am fearful,
That is the crux of the matter: becoming sufficiently confident in your skills that you don't need three spare jumpers and four spare sets of underwear.

Cheers

"UL allows you to just carry lighter weight versions of more traditional backpacking gear, but not really change your backpacking lifestyle."

My pack is light enough now that I don't notice any more changes in base weight. Before fully adopting UL, I enjoyed trips but had the attitude that I would enjoy myself MORE once I made it to the destination. Now I walk all day, free and unfettered, and the journey IS the destination. So for me, I have arrived. Big change.

I think many like me have pushed UL limits and have found that they sometimes push back. I like heated food instead of power bars; I like feeling sufficiently warm and dry at night. There is a tipping point where inconvenience, risk and cost trump saving a few ounces. In the context of a site that explores taking less and going lighter, SUL seems like a fun but somewhat arbitrary line for the already established spectrum of discussion. This may partially explain the lack of SUL posts. Nevertheless, I am confident they are appreciated.

There appears to be a divide between those who pursue SUL as a game, prize, fetish or obsessional pursuit and those who want to promote it as a philosophy and as an aesthetic. Both schools probably require a thread specific to SUL. Essential man has no use for UL, standing naked before glorious nature.

Suggested new thread: "DIY Loincloths- cuben or polycro?"

"The whole of camping used to be a recreational offshoot of military and homesteading experiences with surplus equipment. The Recreational Equipment Inc Co-op for instance used to only import serious climbing and mountaineering gear."

I think the horse is out of the barn on that last point.

–B.G.–

"I think many like me have pushed UL limits"

What's there to push?

You can purchase everything at REI and still go UL.

Going SUL is so much different than a lack of comfort.
It's much more of a mindset that until you have it, I wouldn't expect you to get it.
I also believe you can easily go SUL much cheaper than UL now days.

Hello Aaron. My mindset is to have a transparent experience in the wilderness. When I don't feel encumbered, inconvenienced or at risk because of equipment, I am free. That is the push, a transparent experience.

Others get additional kicks from going faster, going even lighter, or making their own stuff. All are cool.

"My mindset is to have a transparent experience in the wilderness. When I don't feel encumbered, inconvenienced or at risk because of equipment, I am free. That is the push, a transparent experience.

Others get additional kicks from going faster, going even lighter, or making their own stuff. All are cool."

Well said, Cameron.

IMO, Mitch and Katherine hit the two key nails right on the head.

"I think part of it is that there's not much to discuss about SUL that isn't relevant to regular ULers."

As far as I can see it, there's only one aspect of gear discussion that's potentially SUL-specific – the pack. Is there anything else that isn't part of what mainstream ULers are considering as their alternatives?

"Because there's that much less *stuff* to discuss."

When I'm packing for an SUL trip, there just aren't that many degrees of freedom. The questions get more interesting when I start thinking about what else I might bring, or whether it's worth it to go with a heavier alternative for one of the basics.

As a consequence, I tend to gravitate more to the other forums.

Cheers,

Bill S.

What do you want to talk about?

http://sweepingthegarden.wordpress.com/2011/07/17/east-fork-solo-716-717/
I talk about gear at the end of this post.

http://sweepingthegarden.wordpress.com/2013/06/08/sul-overnight-kit/
The whiskey probably weighs as much as my sleeping bag…I don't drink anymore though, so that's a weight saver!

At a certain point there's just not a lot to say that hasn't been said. I'm happy to re-hash old discussions about light shelters and site selection, packing for reality vs. fears, what are true necessities, etc.

Wait a second… Am I in the SUL discussion forum?

I hate it when I click on the wrong link!

>>> Why is this forum so inactive?

Maybe because those of us who are sub-x-pounds are tired of being attacked and condemned for what we do, or do not, carry – and thus our posts just go off topic and turn into one sided attacks, and those of us interested in posting, sharing, and learning about sub-x-pounds have just decided dealing with the haters is not worth it.

"… dealing with the haters is not worth it."

Yep.

When the third post of a Trip Report is a criticism of honesty you know things are heading south.

So carry on your dialogue with those that matter and ignore the rest. I like reading about SUL just because 1) it affirms my approach, or 2) I learn a new perspective. Either way it's a win for me.

Then it gets trolled or side-barred into a completely new subjects and picks up from there.

This is what usually happens to most of my posts.

I'm not even close to SUL but I do enjoy pulling 'parts' out into my own kit. So keep it coming…learning takes time.

I just don't think there is all that much to say that is radically different from what is regularly discussed in the other forums. We are also looking at a small subset of what is already a small niche – do the math as they say.

I regularly check out John's website, but to me it seems to focus on gear over technique and has very few trip reports. I would love to see more trip reports from those travelling SUL/XUL – inspire us.

Personally I am very busy with family and other commitments and this doesn't leave much time for fine tuning equipment and technique. I've got a pretty decent set up that I can use for solo and family trips. When I get the chance to get out there I just chuck together what works and go. However, I do follow those who spend a lot of time out in the field, constantly refining their technique and gear. There is always something to learn and apply to my own situation. No hating or trolling from me I hope.

Years ago, when I and several others were on the cutting edge of a subject that involved a billion dollar industry, we took the risks of being exposed as forward thinkers, took the arrows and slings that were flung our way by those who thought they knew better and were both uncaring and ignorant. We eventually persevered and proved that the theories we were exploring were sound and of benefit to those concerned. Now these practices are seen as a viable option and embraced by intelligent and caring people. We were athletes and scientists. I didn't like being attacked and told I was wrong and the attacks and poison were really hard to take. We were told we were crazy. My mentor told me to get a thicker hide or get out of the business, which was in my opinion rather callus, but he was a wise person and a survivor and in a way, right. Now I like to think that being a sensative and careing person is one of my best assets, but I did "get a thicker hide" and learned to just ignore the naysayers. Any time you practice something that is new, and is not fully understood by the masses there will be resistance. What you do and teach is valuable and needs no validation, just keep on providing by example and offering the option to those who are interested. You never know, SUL might be the "in" thing someday in the future.

For me SUL is all about whether or not I'll be sleeping out in temps above or below say 40 degrees and how many days of food I'll have to carry.
If the temps are to be relatively mild and I only need to pack a day or 2 of food (and hence a frameless SUL pack) then heck yea, I can go SUL pretty easy. But when the temps go down and/or I need to carry more food, then I'll move up into the UL (> 5 lbs but < 10 lbs ) category or maybe a little above.

As far as anyone putting down SUL hikers, I don't pay the slightest bit of attention… water off a duck's back. I did see one funny YouTube video entitled Ultralight Backpacking Rant where the guys says: "if you want to sleep out on a 1/8 inch thick piece of foam in a bivy with no tarp, hey cool!"

>>>I don't pay the slightest bit of attention… water off a duck's back.

I keep trying to impress upon my step-daughter that this is the key to happiness. People get so angsty about the most trivial things these days. They don't have the ability to say "I honestly don't give a crap what others are saying"…. and actually, really mean it.

I'm newer to the forum and still soaking it all in one thread at a time. My 2cents on activity is because it is Winter. Even 10lbs can be harder to hit in winter, the lower you go the more you have to test, trust and invest in solid gear. Or wait for sturdy breaks in the weather.

Hi DM

> I like to think that being a sensative and careing person is one of my best assets,
ONLY at a personal level!
It's a huge DISadvantage in business and in research – and any other competitive endeavor.

> get a thicker hide or get out of the business
Yup. because if you don't, you WILL get hurt badly.
Sad, but very true.

On the other hand, that's why we have all the technological advances we have in our society: because someone was sufficiently determined to ride over the naysayers. It works both ways.

Cheers

We want:

> Unobtainium hiking and tent poles

> Down that NEVER absorbs water

> tent material lighter than Cuben and tougher than slinylon

> stoves that use a version of solid rocket fuel (with 2 oz. lasting 5 days)

> packs with sensors and servos that adjust the harness to our muscle fatigue, body type and size

> boots/shoes 1/2 the weight of trail runners

> freeze-dried food that TASTES GOOD

But, hey, we are already so close to so much of what I've listed that we should just be greateful. Our backpacking "forefathers" (like me) carried canvas packs and kapok filled rectangular sleeping bags and slept in canvas tents.

When I first joined BPL I wasn't even aware there were categories of lightweight. Three books later (the book of the bivi, 101 ultralight backpacking tips, Ray's big book) and having devoured lots of posts I now discover I am ultralight and maybe sometimes super or hyper ultralight. I've always tried to have the lightest rucksack I can find – I had a travel one which packed into its own pocket that was basically a single sausage shape with straps that I added a waistband to. I had a tiny space age sleeping bag, which used some kind of metallised fabric and was the earliest mummy shape I came across by years,, I had a roll of foam which gave the rucksac some shape. And then I had a couple of drinks bottles. I used to have a light groundsheet as a cover which I sort of sausaged myself into so I looked like a burrito – cheaper than a bivi and useable as a windbreak too. I had a silver foil tin from a takeaway which I cooked in, and a plastic cup from a cafe. I carried one on one off in terms of clothes… And used the groundsheet as a waterproof if it got horrid. But I was only walking and backpacking in the UK and Europe oh and South asia, and Australasia, just not the US. Oh and I and a neat travel toothbrush that came in a little case which became the handle, came free in a long distance flight pack, and the soft slippers from a plane too, great for bed socks. And a comb from them with a mirror on the back of the comb. Forgotten that half my kit came from plane giveaways!

I think now I just have slightly posher versions of this gear, and even today have plane giveaways – ear plugs!