Cost and Fill Power

From what I understand, you are paying for the weight savings. I have an EE 20* Rev with 750fp and it beats that temperature claim by about 5 degrees and weighs under 21oz. I am happy with my choice.

Why don't you get a 50 degree synthetic quilt and combine the two, that's what I'm planning to do for the occasional winter trip in the snow plus I can use the synthetic quilt by itself when needed.

In my experience, 750 fill vs 900 fill equals more loft, loft equals more warmth. I find a huge difference between 800 and 900 fill down loft. I have always been warmer in more lofty bags and quilts with higher fill ratio. It's not about the weight, it's about the warmth.

You are talking about $/ounce or $/gram, which is, actually, a very very rational way of deciding to spend money on weight weenie purchases. Quite commonly made in the extreme weight weenie cycling world (and others) but no so much here on BPL.

$100 for an ounce is a lot, its almost $4/gram. Think about what other things in your gear list you could save weight on, and work out the $/gram for those. Chances are, you are much better off saving money on the quilt, and spending money saving weight on other things. Of course, if you look down the list, and the total cost, and you can afford it all, do the quilt too :-) A quilt whether 750 or 900 loft is a relatively long term investment…

Duane,
Go to your kitchen , pick up a tablespoon.
Fill that with water twice.
That is about 1 oz.

Another option, if you don't think you'll use a 20degree quilt much, is to shoot for a synthetic quilt and save more dough. Sure, your weight goes up, but its only for this hike, and its not by much. Or you could think about layering and use your existing quilt. Eg add some cheap booties, wear your jacket, etc.

Well, there is a lot of discussion about the overall usefulness of 800 fill down vs 750. In any type of damp conditions, 800FP down will degrade slightly quicker than 75FP down. If you always hike in the Sierras, with its generally dryer climate, It will likely pay in extra warmth. In the NW or NE, it probably will not help that much. But, as I understand the EE site, it looks like you get Duck down in 750 and Goose down in 800. Offhand, I would say that the 800 Goose down fill is more about keeping you warm. Duck down is typically smaller in plume size. Again, this *could* help in 100% humidity and/or a few rainstorms, whether you allow the down to wet or not. But, I hike mostly in the ADK's of NY. I *expect* rain or heavy dew every day. I am not usually disapointed.

The overall difference is only weight. And one ounce is not too bad unless you are pushing SUL range. For the money saved, I would go for the 750FP Duck Down.

Duane, you are assuming that cost must be an important factor in a "rational" decision. For some it is not, or at least not to the extent that others see it. For them it is about stepping up to save weight, period. Their rational viewpoint is to consider every step taken, every foot of elevation gain, every day and month and year of ownership, and consider the extra dollars a necessary evil to achieve a goal that they can amortize over a long period of time.

The old addage "pounds are cheap but ounces are expensive" seems to ring true here.

Feathered friends has a good little blurb on goose vs. duck down: http://featheredfriends.com/faq/#goosedown

I assume you are thinking of getting a 20* quilt for the additional warmth is will provide over your 30*. Rather that discuss the relative value/performance of different down fills/sources, you might consider defining a complete sleep system…especially since you love your current quilt.

Glen Van Peski (GossamerGear) posits that if you aren't wearing all of your clothes at night you have brought too many clothes, and that doing so means you can bring a lighter bag/quilt. Granted this takes a notion to it's logical end point, but when we consider the quilt as simply another item of warm clothing worn during the appropriate periods of low activity, Glen's view makes a lot of sense.

We all carry base layers, fleeces, down insulation layers and don/doff them as conditions dictate…why is sleeping any different? The quilt then can be seen simply as the last layer you don during your most inactive period of the day, sleeping.

I suggest you save the entire cost of a new quilt and look into combining your beloved existing quilt and (existing?) clothing to create a sleep system that works down to your lowest expected temperature. Using this method, I have taken bags rated at 30* well into the single digits. And yes, I was warm and comfortable while wearing all my clothes around camp. At bedtime I just tucked into that "outer jacket" and dozed off.

Contra what was mentioned above where the higher fill provides higher warmth, at EE the difference really is weight, rather than warmth. We offer both options because there's definitely a subset of customers that are insistent on Goose down vs. Duck. In our own experience, there's not really any other performance difference between them besides the weight because of the difference in fill.

If you layer quilts it will weigh more

If a quilt is 3 square yards, and you use 0.9 oz/square yard fabric, the inside and outside fabric will weigh 5 ounces. If you have two quilts, you will have an extra 5 ounces of fabric. This fabric adds little warmth.

Lighter to have just one quilt that has enough down in it to be warm. That might mean you have to have an extra quilt for winter, which costs a bunch.

Thanks for the comments all. I appreciate the info re duck v. goose down from Peter at EE.
And you've all given me some useful perspectives on the trade space I'm exploring. John Holmes is absolutely correct – I should approach this from the perspective of my total sleep system.

The key parameters I'm considering are:
– Weight
– Cost
– insulating power (as a function of weight)
– quality of my sleep (i.e., being well rested vs. shivering on colder nights)

So far, my options seem to be:

– Layer another quilt on top of my 30 deg. Revelation.
Assessment: I'm ruling out this option based on weight. I agree with Jerry that that the penalty in weight is to high as compared to a warmer quilt.

That leaves:

– Buy a warmer quilt.

– Use what I've got.

So here's my current sleep system (that some suggested was not adequate for a Sept JMT trip, particularly the Whitney area in late Sept.)

EE Rev 30 deg quilt
Neoair Xlite (regular)
Western Mtn'eering Flash Hooded Jacket (3+ oz 800 fill)
zPacks fleece skullcap
Icebreakers Merino t-shirt
Redram Merino 1/4 zip long-sleeve
REI Polartec fleece bottoms
REI ltwt merino quarter socks

Additional clothes I could use:
– Driducks rain jacket
– Mtn Hardware Ghost Whisperer windshirt
– hiking pants OR Driducks rain pants
– fleece gloves
– 2nd pair of socks

I know the only way to be sure this works down into the 20's is to get out there and try it. But there is a serious dearth of temps in the 20's in my neck of SoCal, so comments are appreciated!

Unless unseasonably cool weather moves in, I think you would be fine with that list. With Dri Ducks, gloves, and extra socks you should be good, although you may be pushing it with the xlite. A 1/4" ccf pad 60" long would add 5oz and 1 R to your pad as well as pad protection and some insulation should you spring a leak in the night.

Duane,

I have to agree with John Vance…I think you are set with what you have. As you mentioned, you cannot be certain until you try it as the only experience that matters is yours.

My experience is that *I* would be fine with your gear list. I sleep neutral (neither cold nor warm) and my system kept me toasty into the single digits:

WM Megalight (rated at 30*)
NeoAir regular (original)
Merino 150 top and bottom
Pat Cap4 zip top
Montbell UL Down parka
Montbell Thermawrap pants
Mountain Hardwear Fleece beanie
OR PL 150 gloves
2 pair wool socks.

Spent a couple hours around camp in the mid 20s before turning in…was warm as heck all night.
I also shifted all of the down in the Megalight into the top (*love* the ability to redistribute down in this bag).
Woke up to frost Christmas decorations on the inside roof of the tent, and my fingers were numb packing up, but I slept well.

Your gear list very closely parallels mine.

John and John:

Thank you both! Your comments have been a great help. Really appreciate the feedback and your willingness to share your own experiences.

– duane

If you don't buy the 850 fill power quilt you will also have all that extra money in your wallet dragging you down.

I don't have any particular insight on the JMT that time of year or anything, but unless you tend to sleep cold, it sounds like that whole system together can work for you. Pushing 10° lower with your layers is normally quite realistic. Even though the pad isn't really designed for those settings, you should be able to pull it off. I've even used an Xlite in temps much colder than the 20s, and while it's not ideal, it still does a decent job considering.

Why not overstuff your current quilt?

You are buying something that is pretty darn close to what you already have. Tim does do overstuff. Why not add a little more down to the quilt you have. It might not end up being a full 20° quilt but it will be pretty darn close and probably much cheaper than a whole new quilt.