Need help with women’s layering for warmth

It will REALLY depend on the weather she's going to be in… need more info on that to be able to give you the best advice. Is she cold WHILE hiking, when she stops for a rest, or just when sitting around camp?

I have totally different layering systems, depending on what/where/season/temps.

In dry winter (snow) conditions, I start with expedition weight powerstretch long undies (zip top, standard bottom). Then I add a vest (down or synthetic), then a goretex layer. Most of which gets removed while I'm moving. And I have extra insulation in my pack.

In Sierras in summer (above 10,000 ft), I don't need much insulation while hiking (wind shirt is usually ideal), but a light down vest/jacket is necessary when I stop for a rest (or around camp). Around camp, a fairly thin merino layer (top & bottom) is good for dinner/breakfast and sleeping. A down jacket is added, as needed, for comfort around camp.

For me, it's the sleeping bag that's the issue. I hate lying awake shivering all night.

Oops — right you are. This last trip was low 80s during the day and a low of 50 at night.

She was fine in the T and long pants moving during the day, and with the windshirt while less mobile in the afternoon. As the temps neared 50 in the evening, though, wearing everything listed while static wasn't sufficient.

Next few trips will be Sierras, mostly Emigrant, so similar temps.

Sleeping was indeed an issue; her new EE Prodigy 20 should help. :)

Not a lady but if she was mostly cold in the evening I would add a thicker puffy as opposed to a thicker fleece than the R1 (which is already quite warm for when moving). You could take one thicker down or synthetic hoody that is good for your intended temp range.

If you make sure you can layer them over the one she already has, you can combine them and go out in even colder than your normal temps. Alternatively you could sell her current one and just get one thicker one of course.

…like an Atom SV, say? For instead of/over the Nitrous?

For about 1 oz more, but a lot more money, you could get her a Mirage jacket – MUCH warmer. Make sure it is large enough to sleep comfortably in. 5.3 oz of fill. Overkill works pretty well :-)

I know a lot of women say 15 is what that like in a bag for the mountains.

Yeah, Marko, I had a Neutrino Endurance ordered from Prolite for thirty seconds before she said she'd never be seen dead in those baffles. :) I think synthetic continuous filament may be the way to go.

" she said she'd never be seen dead in those baffles."

Be sure you remind her of her stylistic foibles the next time she is freezing her butt off, especially if it is dark out :-)

This is a woman who wears handmade '40s vintage on a daily basis. When I first suggested 'insulation', her response was 'oh, so furs?"

Getting her into technical clothing of any sort is a feat — I'll take what I can get. :)

With guys it is so much easier. We just figure if we are wearing it we don't have to look at it.

My girlfriend always runs a little cold when she's not moving and this set-up has worked great for her.

Baselayer – MEC T-1 long sleeve shirt
Windshirt – MEC windshirt
Mid-Layer – Arcteryx Atom LT
Puffy – Sherpa down jacket (can't think of the name)
Rain Jacket – Rab Kinetic

90% of the time we are moving she's only wearing the base layer and the wind shirt. The Atom LT comes out for lunch breaks and on cooler days in the alpine, and the puffy goes over all of them at camp.

She used to carry a R1 type fleece and the Atom LT as a puffy, but it wasn't enough. She's found that if it gets cool enough while moving to add a fleece, she might as well just use the Atom LT. It breathes well enough that she doesn't overheat in it and it's warmer than the fleece.

Keep in mind, this is in the Yukon. It may very well be overkill for the southern states. We camped out last night in the alpine and it got to near freezing and I think her set-up was just perfect for the conditions.

Cheers…

Depending on how much extra she wants I think an Atom SV would be more than great. Looks and feels good when wearing it. I would look for one quick though because I am almost sure they're not going to be on sale next season.
I got mine in exchange from Arc'teryx and it is one of my favourite pieces. If she wants to layer over existing pieces – the Atom SV is designed/fitted to do that. I.e. I have an Atom LT and SV in the same size and the SV is bigger to incorporate the layering.

edit – depending on how cold she runs an Atom LT might be fine, more flexible when layering though. You could wear that thing more often I think. Then layer with her down if necessary.

My wife usually wears a capilene 4 hoody, capilene 4 long underwear, a down puffy (Stoic Hadron), windshirt, and a hat. She was cold sometimes until she got a Montbell Thermawrap Skirt. She swears by that thing, uses it all the time, and isn't cold very often anymore.

Clothing systems and cold sensitivity is so personal, you're going to get about as many different answers as posts, here.

But FWIW here's what works for me into the daytime 60s / camptime 40s, overnight 30s range you're talking about.

Hiking: SS Shirt and shorts. Wind shirt to add a little warmth at rest stops. If it's too chilly in the morning I throw on a cap 3 LS shirt.

In camp, as evening progresses, I change out shorts for polartec fleece leggings and add the cap 3 LS top and wind shirt. when that doesn't cut it anymore I toss on a down insulation layer, (a moderate one like a Hadron or pata down sweater). when that's not enough I add rain pants and rain jacket on top. So in the end I might wind up with 5 layers (T shirt, LS shirt, wind shirt, down jacket, rain jacket. these are all sized to work together. When that doesn't work it's time to get into bed!

Thanks for the help, all.

Going to start with adding LS Capilene 3 or Merino top & bottom and add an insulation piece as needed. Will report back.

Proper insulation is more helpful, but try giving her a handful of cashews and a chocolate bar or energy bar when she gets cold, especially before going to bed…it makes a big difference. (It doesn't have to be cashews and chocolate, just something she likes that has some fat in it).

A few points:

A 20F sleeping quilt should improve things greatly for her! I had a women's 15F Helium, and I was never cold sleeping.

I agree with Ito that the problem is not with the mid-layers; it's that the down layer is not warm enough. Unless you're going to be in very rainy territory, I would NOT get her a synthetic puffy — they are less warm for the weight than down, so to get her warm enough, you'd need a REALLY thick synthetic (which she isn't going to like).

I am assuming that, around camp, she's wearing a warm hat, warm socks, dry shoes, and maybe gloves. (All of which will make quite a difference in her warmth.)

If she could extend her retro/vintage fashion sense to embrace Norma Kamali's 1975 iconic Sleeping Bag Coat, the look of puffys might not seem so bad… ;^)

If your budget would allow, look at the Feathered Friends Ellia jacket. It's got 4.9 oz of fill for a 12 oz total weight (mmmmmmm, WAAAAARM), and although it IS puffy, it's not as boxy as some of the other alternatives.

Last summer in the Sierras, I used a Women's MH Ghost Whisperer Down Jacket — not warm enough for me. This summer, I'll be taking my new Ellia, and I'm sure I won't be cold.

50 just is not that cold. I would ask the following:

is she eating enough? people who try doing low fat or special diets do not do well backpacking – calories from carbs and fats need to increase. lots of protein exacerbates elevation issues as they are harder to digest.

is she drinking enough? people will stop drinking at dinnertime to avoid getting up to pee. a mistake – proper hydration keeps you warmer. have hot herbal teas and cocoa or water often.

is she fit? people who exercise frequently have more efficient metabolisms and do better with temper regulation overall.

are there metabolic conditions in play? i sold a 0 degree bag to someone with thyroid issues – she is always cold no matter what. A fellow who went backpacking last year with my group was horribly cold on a warm night – turned out the rash he thought was dermatitis was a staph infection living on his skin. many conditions affect thermoregulation.

Small thin people also tend to struggle with keeping warm. A knit or down beanie hat, warm gloves, and thick socks just for camp/sleeping will help a lot.

I am a woman hiker and like your GF I am fine in standard layers (t-shirt, long pants) when hiking but get very cold at night.

I sleep in a Western Mountaineering Versalite. I wear some Costco brand of long underwear that are 200 weight. If it's cold out (our summer night time temps can drop to freezing) I will add: down balaclava, down booties, nanopuff pullover. And if I'm still cold- which can happen if I'm quite fatigued- I'll boil water and put it in my water bottle and take a hot water bottle to bed with me. I place it in a sock to keep it from burning me. Sometimes an external heat source makes all the difference.

If you want to appeal to her stylish side (and again this is probably thermal overkill) but I was remembering Andrew Skurka's mom sewed a Coyote fur fringe on his jacket hood before he did his Alaskan expedition. Maybe if you sew a little fur on an otherwise technical jacket it might raise it to the level of acceptability. It would be warmer too, a secondary benefit. ;-)

"This is a woman who wears handmade '40s vintage on a daily basis. When I first suggested 'insulation', her response was 'oh, so furs?' "

If you want to appeal to her stylish side (and again this is probably thermal overkill) but I was remembering Andrew Skurka's mom sewed a Coyote fur fringe on his jacket hood before he did his Alaskan expedition. Maybe if you sew a little fur on an otherwise technical jacket it might raise it to the level of acceptability. It would be warmer too, a secondary benefit. ;-)

Thanks for your replies, all.

@Rob & Lori — She is fit, has no metabolic oddities that either of us know of, no special diet. Hydration may be part of it — going to a reservoir & tube setup rather than bottles from now on to make this easier. The 'fueling the furnace before bed' is a tip that after lo these many years I too often forget myself… will have nuts as a bedtime snack.

@Val — Man, that's a nice jacket, but given that she'll need a pack with a little more volume to accommodate the syn quilt, budget is an issue; trying to stay under $200. Backcountry has Thorium AR hoodies w/3oz of 750 down on sale, matte finish and supposedly good for hourglass figures… not crazy about the coreloft bits but she's not going to wear those out anytime soon.

@Dena — talking to Tim about those new EE Apex Booties. For this woman and this woman alone I will carry a Nalgene, if it comes to that. :)

@Marko — I will suggest the coyote trim. :) She wants to make the cape from 'Frozen'; know where I can find a couple of yards of rose-colored PowerDry, or better yet eVent?

For me I have found that nothing is warmer than down. There's just something about down that feels so nice and toasty that other fabrics lack for whatever reason. I always feel freezing hot in fleece, plus I hate the way fleece has so much static. Freezing hot means that on one level I'm too warm, but then a breeze comes up and goes right through and then I'm freezing. Sweat will form and then I'm really freezing.

For sleeping I've settled on using two quilts, one 20 degree quilt plus a 45 degree quilt on top of it. If it's too warm, I just push the 45 degree quilt off. If it's cold sitting around camp, I can wear the 45 degree quilt because it has a hole for my head in the middle. With this craziness I'm never cold. I might look ridiculous but I'm never cold.

Other things that help are hats, sometimes multiple, especially some kind of hat that covers also my neck, ears and chin. Gloves are a necessity. And hot drinks when all else fails.

All encompassing article taking in consideration cold conditions…..

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You mention her getting cold at night. I do that too–if she has a quilt, a women's NeoAir XLite might help. I use it all year long, but my son complains that it's too hot on warm nights.