Help Pimp my MTR to Whitney Food System

First of all, I have some doubts that you will get twelve days worth of food into 650 cubic inches. You might get close to that, but you have to be willing to sustain a body weight loss of five or ten pounds. More practically, I think you will need something closer to 100 cubic inches of volume per day.

You might try one very large bag of dehydrated quinoa. Then if you have several different kinds of soup bases, you can call that several different evening meals. Or, with one bag of dehydrated quinoa, you can fill up the air spaces with some kind of powdered diet drink that is just sifted in.

"what BG's friend did and pound a bunch a shortbread in the can"

I think that was several pounds of shortbread cookies that had been attacked by a rolling pin.

The best that I ever did was one nine-day trip with a Garcia canister. Nine days meant that the first day's worth of food was not inside, so it was eight days of food inside the canister.

–B.G.–

Take a look at what Mike C! does with Goovy Biotic foods. A few bulk carb bases enhanced with sauces. While he didn’t focus on UL, I think it has potential for what you are trying to do.

By the way, I measured a PowerBar HarvestEnergy did the math, and concluded that even if you pulverize them, you can get only 32,000 calories into the canister, assuming you “tamp” the mix into the canister (very low “void volume).

And This Thread may be helpful.

I can get 8 days of ~3500 cal per day in it.
At 3000, it might be 9 days .
12 days, I dont really think so.

With 8 days in the can, and 1st day(1/2 day after resupply) in the pack, I plan to make it to WP in 8 days at a moderate pace. Should end up with 1/2 day food left in the pack. I will also shave a day off schedule if possible.

I expect to lose about 7-8 lbs on the trail. First section is planned to eat myself silly at Tuolomne, Reds Meadow, and VVR. I expect to consume 10,000 cal on my zero day at VVR.

So Here are some numbers – 6 cups uncooked macaroni = 12 cups cooked macaroni = 8.75 cups dehydrated macaroni. The volume of dehydrated macaroni is greater than uncooked. However, the dehydrated is actually lighter than the uncooked as 32 oz of uncooked macaroni = 29.3 oz of dehydrated. I believed the 2.7 oz difference is significant, and much larger that any "nibble factor" uncertainty incurred during the fully cooked phase of the experiment. Is it possible I am the first to measure the weight of the lost taste?

And they said I was mad! But how can those simpletons deny my genius now? Muhahaha!

I do realize that the goal of getting 12 days of food in the Weekender is probably in vain, short of filling the can with power gel this is what 8 days worth of dehydrated homemade Chilimac looks like in a weekender.

And this is what a little over 11 days of dinners in three bags – approximate model for three different types of meals – looks like.

The Chilimac at least would also require a bag of Parmesan. I think breakfast could be made equally compact, but the snacks are going to be a problem.

But I will eventually show exactly what I got into the can, and how, once I figure out my actual limit.

Now take a bag of the prepared food and fill up its air spaces by sifting in maltodextrin powder or milk powder.

–B.G.–

Bob,

Yes, a good physics homework problem – if packing 2 different granular substances with different characteristic grain sizes (and using the well-known "spherical macaroni" approximation) what is the largest size of the smaller grains for there to be an efficient packing. "Largest" as a way to avoid the "mush" attractor catastrophe at r=0.

As one would imagine there are already results here. For radii of the finer substances of > 0.41421 of the radius of the larger grains the smaller will not fit. But things get much better for smaller grains with radii <= 0.29090 that of the larger grains. So it isn't in theory necessary to immediately jump to using microscopic grains (a.k.a. mush).

Also there is a strong tendency for separation into phases outside of this range of radii ratios. With the fixed boundary condition of the can this stabilizes the higher energy mixed phase. But, as in the related problem of optimal suitcase packing, opening the can will tend to allow a transition to the lower free-energy (but greater volume) phase.
May be hard to repack after opening the can. But perhaps if you eat enough the first time (or are very fast) it will not matter.

Using quinoa (or maybe) couscous sounds about the right size to avoid the phase separation issue. Now if we only had a lightweight way to re-separate the grains. That is a lot of entropy to work against.

Also consider Orzo – a wheat pasta with excellent packing characteristics –

And for nutritional variety the brown rice pastas from Tinkyada.

No reason you can’t break “lasanga” noodles into 1″ pieces for better packing, and easier eating.

You might not be able to call it Chili Mac though …

"Also consider Orzo – a wheat pasta with excellent packing characteristics -"

+1 Using orzo, cous cous, fine grade bulgur wheat, "mush" type cereals, buckwheat, and quinoa would allow for plenty of variety and very efficient space utilization. Include powders like Nido, Ensure, Perpetuem(homemade, or commercial for the affluent lazy class), packets of nut butters/olive oil/coconut oil, and ground up or crushed nuts/chips/cookies, and fruit leathers, and you're well on the way to solving the 12 days of food in a Weekender challenge. All of these would be best packed in bulk to maximize space utilization. I don't see the larger pastas as being a very efficient ingredient for solving the problem.

I'm pretty sure it can be done.

Edited: Just came across another ingredient in another thread that would fit very well into this packing technique: powdered butter. Might as well add powdered cheese and sour cream while I'm at it.

Just take the dry lump of food and saturate it with olive oil. I doubt that the volume will change, and it will add a ton of calories. Plus, olive oil is mostly a monounsaturated fat which is the healthy kind.

–B.G.–

Yes, orzo is great. In fact the first thing I dehydrated when I got a dehydrator was my favorite orzo receipt, w/Kalamata olives, toasted almonds, basil, cherry tomatoes and feta. Even the feta came out ok, at least by dehydrated food standards. And I think people are right that it packs denser – leave it to the BPL crowd to worry about the inefficient air space in the hollow macaroni.

There was a post maybe 10 yeas ago from a guy who packed everything as densely as possible and then poured couscous on top, occasionally shaking and slapping the can, until all the cracks AROUND the other packed food were filled in. Then when he "ran out" of the packed food there was still a day or so of couscous in the bottom of the can. I think some of Bobs suggestions take this to the next level as there is a "ton" of wasted air in between those dehydrated chunks! Just have to wrap my mind around the old adage that "it all goes to the same place anyway". Also the other old adage that "upchucked calories are lost calories".

I will definitely bring olive oil.

I went to the store today and got some "place-holder" snickers and such, and some granola so I will see where I am at using "normal" packing and food, and then try various things.

I would suggest to take the dehydrated food, then sift in grated parmesan cheese, then pour in the olive oil. That way, it is sort of complete just the way it stands, and it doesn't have to be separated. Just pour boiling water over it, let it stand, and dig in.

–B.G.–

After all of that discussion about you filling up your bear canister and trying to make the most out of your food, I was working on the same problem for an upcoming trip of my own, but I was going to be out for only 6.5 days with a 500 cubic inch bear canister.

Just to eyeball estimate it, I set out large quantities of backpacker food on a table. This included freeze-dried, air-dehydrated, packaged food, and zero fresh food. It included breakfasts, lunch snacks, energy drink powders, and dinners.

I packed what appeared to be the right amount (by volume) into the bear canister with the first day of food in an extra bag. I weighed that combination, and then I subtracted the empty weight of the bear canister. The net food weight is 8.17 pounds. My original food weight goal was 8.25 pounds. That was amazingly accurate. As soon as I add in a bit of cheese, it will be virtually perfect.

Maybe I've been down this road before.

–B.G.–

Your dinner volume, is probably 20-25% or so of your total daily calories. Mine, is 17%.

You know the volume of the cannister ~650 in3. Make a small box as big as you will need for 1 day, you are looking at ~54 in3 for 12 days. That is 5×5 x 2 1/8" tall. Now put all your food for just one day in there. Good luck .

Dont forget toiletries and other smellable items like sunscreen, hand sanitizer , garbage, need to go in there as well.

Yeah, %25 is pretty spot on for me, only sometimes (OK, usually) I include a dessert in the dinner, so I think more or less in equal thirds (breakfast/snacks/dinner). From experience I know can get 7 days in without thinking with repackaged but still modular meals, and I'm hoping 8+ with some adjustments like I have been talking about, so 9+ days of food. Haven't tried anything like the latter since I got this can a few years back – I have in recent years been working too much to do long trips. Actually 2004 is the last time I did a trip 3 weeks or longer. I'm sure 11(12) if possible at all would require major reorientation of what I eat, and its one thing to eat crap when you are trying go as fast and light as possible, but another thing if you have to do this for a long time. I don't feel like eating mush fits into the philosophy of this trip. :-)

However I have a bunch of free time just now. I've probably done a dozen shorter trips in the sierra over the past decade or so where I said "I wish I would have had more time so I could have done more X" as I was hiking out. I've never done the whole JMT at once, just lots of pieces. So… doing the JMT at a pace of less than 1/2 my "normal" pace (already < 20 mpd), was what I came up with. So the southern stretch of the JMT finally is making me test the limits of what I can do with that can and no supplementary hanging.

Its not too bad as I know I can't (and don't want to) do a 1/2 paced southern half of the JMT without resupply. I may have to up my pace to about 0.6 starting at MTR if I want to get resupplied at a point that actually has a pass. That or do some hanging south of MTR.

But the good news is that If I get fully resupplied in the middle of that stretch I can then do the last 40 or so miles of the JMT at 0.3 if I want. I suppose I may get bored, but I'm going to find out. My permit is for a week longer than I will need even at my very slow pace. I've never done a trip where both the opportunity and the motivation is to maximize the TIME. I'm guessing this may very well be the only time for that.

So in this very special case I feel more or less covered since I'm not going for a no resupply (unless forced by circumstances) on the MTR to WP segment, but literally a day's extra food on the last resupply will be a day more for my trip.

I'm bringing my Tenkara rod so I may not come out until it starts snowing. ;-)

Do people really eat/need 3, 000 calories a day? I take less than 2,000 and an quite satisfied.
billy

Have you done this for 40+ days while backpacking? More than a week? I will lose weight (a good thing) at 3000 doing that, but 2000 is approximately what you burn (depending on your size) siting on a couch just maintaining your basal metabolism. Fine for short trips as you may not start having dreams about food until a week or so at 2000.

Or you can use MB's strategy and "anaconda up" by eating 4-5 days worth of calories during rest stops. :-)

Sub 2,000 is my typical for an 8 day backpack in the Sierra. I have read that you should eat more, but really I could not force myself to eat more. Totally satisfied.

Well that is a serious caloric deficit, but if it doesn't bother you, more power to you. I'm jealous. You would of course die if you tried to do the PCT that way, but it is probably kind of nice to get back and feel like you can eat anything you want for a while.

>>> 2000 is approximately what you burn (depending on your size) siting on a couch just maintaining your basal metabolism.

Not if you're the average woman… Marko, now all the females (all 5 of us, LOL) on BPL hate you! ;^)

Calories burned at rest would depend on a lot of things…. like age, sex, size of the person, and, I would think there is some individual variation in metabolic rate regardless of the other variables.
billy

Also, when moving calories burned will vary with the same at rest factors, as well as pack weight, boot weight, and stride efficiency… me thinks.
billy

Its been a long time since I have done a trip in the 30 day or so range, but I do recall that at about the 10 or 12 day mark my appetite jumped by about 50%…. which would put it in the 3,000 range. Still, one might save some weight and volume by packing less food for the first week or so… average temps and whether you are warm enough in your bag at night also have some bearing on calorier burned too.
billy

"some individual variation in metabolic rate regardless of the other variables."

Yes, but if you are fit enough to carry a pack and go on an 8 day trip in the sierra your basal rate should be higher, not lower. The usual average values quoted for adults are (I think) something like 1800 for women and 2000 for men per day. Regardless you ARE using more than 2000 per day in the Sierra, unless you are hibernating.

Such is the advantave of having a 'spare tire' to suppliment caloric in take :)
Billy