Water Resistant Down, especially Allied Down HyperDry — Personal experiences?

I used my EE Enigma a few weeks ago along the left coast. The bivy I used as my shelter was already wet with dew at 9PM or so. By morning, it had drizzled a little and the inside of the bivy was running with condensation, little if any puddling yet. The 30F quilt felt fine, no lumps, even after being stuffed for 8 hours, when I got home and pulled it out of its stuff sack, no lumps. Did not weigh it as I had more pressing things to do.
Duane

Both my Katabatic Palisade and Underground Quilts 50F Flight Jacket use 850 fill HyperDry, but it will be hard for me to know when and if the hydrophobic down makes any difference that can't be attributed to the shell material or not breathing into a bag, which I have a bad habit of doing when I curl up in my sleep.
I like the idea of it, though, since the humidity hitting 100% overnight is not an unusual thing here.
Regardless, the Palisade was unaffected by heavy condensation the one time it has encountered it in a bivy.

Thanks for both of your experiences. Can you tell any difference between the loft of these bags and a typical 850+ fill bag? I'm close to pulling the trigger on one but really don't want to spend $500+ on something that I'll regret!

Please allow me to step in and answer some of your questions. I feel like we can be of assistance and will try to keep the marketing lingo to a minimum.

Regarding the water repellency and the importance of such a technology:
OwenM is absolutely correct when he states the importance of the shell in the overall water repellency of the product. However, there are always times where the shell may be breached. Forget about a sudden downpour, many times humidity can be built up when the garment or bag is exposed to prolonged periods in a damp environment – it's what you don't see that can wreak havoc with down.

The other thing that people forget about with WR downs is that they tend to dry faster when it does get wet. We have noticed dry times that are halved in testing HyperDRY (a critical component of developing this from our Allied Resist). What this means is 1. less water retained in the down and 2. faster and thus easier drying.

The main cause of a down product losing it's loft over the lifespan of a product is the build-up of mold and bacteria on the down itself. This is caused by improper drying (sometimes admittedly very difficult to do with a non-WR down). The moisture creates the perfect environment for this growth which chokes the down killing it's resiliency (what we all pay for when buying down products). In theory, the water resistant downs help to make it easier to maintain your products thus actually adding to their life by repelling the moisture and aiding in the drying.

Regarding the fill power, we have actually found and developed HyperDRY to assist in the loft. In down, both size AND STRENGTH help to determine the lofting ability (fill power). The HyperDRY treatment has been developed to increase the strength of the cluster slightly while not diminishing the resiliency. After all, if we are going to treat down, it has to be better in all aspects. Typically, your 850 fill power HyperDRY will have a fill power that has tested much higher than that (we tend to use, and suggest our partners use, the fill power of the pre-treated down). As an example, we recently had a 960 fill power down that tested over 1100 after one of our treatments that included HyperDRY (it was the highest verified fill power the independent lab had ever seen).

The only compromise to this is a nominal increase in weight (and nominal meaning almost non-existent).

… hope this helps. Please do not hesitate to pm us.

An answer from the source — awesome. Thanks for the reply. I'll send this to you in PM but I'm going to post the questions here in case you want to reply publicly.

1. Have you performed any longevity tests on the treated down that demonstrate its resiliency is not affected?
2. I've heard from some of the quilt manufacturers that the treated down feels more "clumpy" compared to 850+ fill down. Any comments on that, and whether or not that gets worse?
3. Do treated downs need to be cleaned more frequently than non-treated?
4. How does your new HyperDry process/technology compare to competitors such as DownTek, DriDown, Encapsil (Patagonia), etc? Anything other than just marketing talk?

Some very pertinent questions I have regarding any in-house or independent testing of your treated down:

5. Would you guys ever consider releasing test results from IDFL (International Down and Feather Testing Laboratory) regarding the treatment that you're adding in your HyperDry product?
6. Have you performed any tests for evaporated moisture (as opposed to liquid water in a cylinder for the shake test)? Water in a gaseous state seems to be of most interest, rather than liquid water, since the primary culprit of wetting the down in my area is humidity, perspiration, and wet clothes inside a bag.

Thanks again!

Thanks… we are happy to be a part of the communities which we serve! And thank you for posting your questions publicly as well.

I am happy to answer them here. We are committed to complete transparency in everything we do… this is just a function of that. It is also why we are a bluesign system partner and helped develop the Responsible Down Standard with the North Face.

Regarding your questions:

1. We perform wash tests to extrapolate longevity. Special quilts are made and after washing, viewed back-lit to determine clumping. We have tested wash numbers that FAR exceed the number any jacket or bag will go through. After 10 washes, we have seen (and felt) no difference at all. Any deterioration from there is very small and not significantly different than untreated down being washed continuously. Let's just say that the treatment will in all likelihood outlive the garment (unless, maybe, you wash your down jacket every week and keep it for decades). We expect our HyperDRY to last just as long if not longer than down. It depends on what would be breaking down your down jacket or bag first – excessive washing or mold.

2. This might sound a little more "market-y" so forgive me, but having been pioneers in the WR down we have gone through a lot of R&D to make sure it does NOT feel clumpy. It's easy to throw a bunch of down in a bath of nasty PFOS / PFOA- filled chemistry and get something that will resist water. That has never been our approach. We have always been known in the industry for the quality and cleanliness of our down and with our down technologies, it is always about improving upon it. And if you lose the "feel" of down, I don't know how much a treatment is worth. It's a tightrope act between enough water resistance and retaining the qualities of down.

3. This is subjective, but I could personally argue the opposite. But no, there is nothing in the treatment that suggests that more frequent cleaning is necessary or beneficial.

4. This relates to number2 – we have been doing this for a while with a lot of brands (who all seem to have their own set of requirements, testing parameters, etc). Comparing HyperDRY to some of those mentioned is tricky because we have actually developed a lot of these WR technologies on the market. HyperDRY is Allied using everything we have learned from working with these brands and developing what we think is the best set of criteria. We have tried to take the best of everything we have done and learned, created new methods that reduce waste, create even thinner yet effective coatings, etc. One important thing we have seen and worked hard for is consistency throughout a range of fill powers. A lot of "others" WR downs perform admirably at high fill powers, but lack significantly at lower ones. One of our goals was to develop HyperDRY with lower fill powers in mind so it doesn't always have to be 800+ to really see results. As a side, this is also important for the bedding industry allowing for use in a down comforter that cleans easier.

5. This one is a little more tricky. A lot of this is obviously proprietary and trade secret regarding the chemistry. What we have been working on is a traceability system, however, that allows the consumer to input a down lot number that would be printed on a hang tag or in the product to view the down's source and all relevant IDFL test results – verified fill power, cleanliness, contents, etc. (trackmydown.com) Depending on the brand, it could also include treatment specific test results – i.e. PFOA / PFOS.

6. We work very closely with IDFL and even helped develop that shake test. It's admittedly not the best, but it performs a service. What you are talking about is something we have been working with them on – it's a lot more complicated and goes beyond my area of expertise to really comment too much on the whys and hows.

Again, hope this helps! … and apologies for the lengthy responses…

Loft. I'm still skeptical that the much thinner EE 30F quilt will be as warm as the much thicker WM 35F bag I have, even with them both spread out so as to only show the loft of the top, the WM bag is much loftier. I need to see if the straps for the quilt, will help keep me warmer as a final test, otherwise, the quilt will have to be used only for July and August bp trips as the Sierra is usually in the upper 20F's at night a good part of the time at elevation. Both EE and ZPacks do list the loft of their bags and quilts.
Duane

Thanks for both of the replies.

Allied: I appreciate you taking the time to respond. Many on this forum are particularly interested in data for #6 — whether or not the down is similarly unaffected by evaporated moisture (sweat, humidity, etc). If you could share any objective testing that you guys have done in the near future — aside from the shake test — we would all gladly await those results.

I will certainly take this into consideration and pass it on to the R&D team. Let's see if I can get y'all some good data on this!

Thanks