Rain Gear – Event or Membrain Strata

[Stephen Murphy]

I had picked up a rain jacket last fall on Ebay at a great price Marmot Super Mica – new with tags, for $65. The jacket is constructed of Marmot's proprietary Membrain Strata fabric, which has a 20,000/20,000 waterproof / breathability rating. It is very light (9.1 oz in xl) and great features ( pit zips, adjustable hood, hem, cuffs and hand warmer pockets) I have only used it a few times, including a 5 hour hike in a constant rain last month, and have been pleased with the performance. However, there have been some reports of durability issues on the web – I have seen no sign of this to date but have not put it to any great abuse either.

Last weekend EMS had a sale on a new jacket they carry – the Air Flow. This is constructed of Event fabric, has all the same features of the Super Mica and weighs 12.1 oz. Sale price was $149. Having looked at other Event jackets in the past, this seemed like a great price.

A three ounce weight gain is of little consequence to me if the performance difference is significant. There are plenty of discussions about Event vs Goretex, but not much comparison of either to Membrain ( which is a PU laminate, not a coating)

Does anyone have any experience with both Event and Membrain products? Or any experience with the Super Mica? I do not need two coats so need to decide which one to keep. Thanks

[Doug L]

EMS did not do a good job describing the material in their specs breakdown. Looking at the pics and the "2.5 layer" fabric thickness, this is most likely event DVL and not traditional 3 layer event. Therefore this jacket is not going to have the durability advantage of traditional event fabric and at this price point/weight is not that good a deal. A similar jacket at a much lower price would be the Mountain Hardwear Plasmic (also uses event DVL) which you can get off of STP for around $70 using the right coupon code.

[Stephen Murphy]

Thanks for pointing the differences out in Event vs Event DVL. I read up a bit on the fabric and also looked at the Plasmic which uses Dry Q Evap. While the Dri Q Elite is identified by Mountain Hardwear as using Event technology, they do not make any reference to Event as it relates to Evap. My guess is you may be correct but you would not know it from Mountain Hardwear's website. Unfortunately, the Plasmic has no pit zips, which are a must for me, and I cannot find other DVL jackets under $150 with pit zips.

Do you have any knowledge as tohow the DVL fabric compares to Membrain Strata?

[victor larivee]

I have the exact same decision to make. I love all my eVent items but they are all 3l. No experience yet with the 2.5l but have read some reviews that it's not as water proof and will wet out quicker than the 3l, how much quicker is the question. I do think the EMS jacket seems more Durable.

[Greg Mihalik]

"No experience yet with the 2.5l but have read some reviews that it's not as water proof and will wet out quicker than the 3l"

The .5 layer compromise is on the inside of the garment.
Next comes the eVent membrane.
Then the outer shell.

If the shell and the eVent layer are comparable, waterproofness will be the same.

Wetting out is a function of the DWR integrity of the shell, not the "next-to-skin" layer.

[Will Newton]

FWIW, I have owned and extensively used Rab (Momentum) and MH (Victorio & Quasar) flavors of 3L eVent, as well as Westcomb's 2.5L Focus to cover a rather large fellow hiking uphill in PNW rain.

The exposed membrane on the 2.5L is slightly tacky to the touch; this is covered by a wicking liner in the 3L versions. A 3L garment will feel like cloth; a 2.5L garment, even dry, will feel like a very synthetic, slightly cool and tacky surface. In a heavy rain, the exposed tacky surface of the 2.5L garment is being driven onto your (presumably sweaty) skin, and the pressure and temperature of the rain is palpable. Without a wicking liner, your sweat simply sits on the membrane, which combined with the pressure of rain can feel very much like liquid penetrating the jacket where there is none.

I've read considerable numbers of reviews on the usual sites (REI, Backcountry, etc) by what I suspect are casual hikers or around-towners that claim the 2.5L garments "wet out". I suspect these reviews are responding to the sensation of their own sweaty skin against the 2.5L membrane under rain rather than a failure of the layup.

I think you'll find a broad consensus across BPL that a 3L eVent/DryQ Elite or 3L Neoshell garment will provide the most comfortable experience, and is well worth the extra ounce or two; the anecdotal and quantifiable breathability of these fabrics is head and shoulders above Gore-Tex Pro, ActiveShell, MemBrain Strata, or other proprietary WPB formulations.

[Woubeir (from Europe)]

" head and shoulders above Gore-Tex Pro"
Pro or the former Pro Shell ?

[Will Newton]

Both, I should think. Having fought through every hands-on review I can find for the past few years, ordered and tried more jackets than anyone needs, I feel like the general agreement with regards to Gore is that the 'magic ingredient' in ActiveShell is… drumroll.. less glue. Given the similarity of their marketing for the new Pro formulations, I'm disinclined to believe that Gore has found an eVent competitor.

The plural of anecdote is not data, and I would love to see Richard Nisley or the guys at ProLite Gear do a test of Pro vs. ProShell for the numbers.

Apologies to the OP for the thread drift. My understanding of the hierarchy of breathability, with no regard for durability and expressed in a manner that will doubtless bring the condemnation of the more scientifically inclined among us down on my head, is:
Neoshell > eVent 3L > eVent 2.5L > ActiveShell, GoreTex Pro >(by a hair) GoreTex ProShell/Paclite/H2No/Membrain/other proprietary layups. Hierarchy of tactile comfort, regardless of manufacturer, will be 3L > 2.5L.

[Woubeir (from Europe)]

Well, Pro is completely different then Active or Pro Shell, has not the 'famous' PU-layer and is air-permeable.

[Will Newton]

Dammit, Woubeir, don't make me buy a Beta LT. ;) I'm off to the Gore marketing specs labyrinth. If nobody hears from me in a month, pls send Richard with his equipment.

Also, I see you've been struggling with this precisely as long as I have: http://goo.gl/jKqCbF

OP: I'd go with the eVent, wear long sleeves.

[Woubeir (from Europe)]

@Will
I don't think you will find something clear in the Gore-labyrinth. But I can tell you I'm 100 % sure. And I can tell you also that I'm in al sorts of WPB-labyrinths for much, much longer. :-)

for the OP: as there are still no clear and/or enough results for Pro, the eVent-one is your best bet, but definitely wear long sleeves.

[Stephen Murphy]

If you think you hijacked my thread, you actually went to the heart of my question as it relates to Membrain vs Event DVL- so thanks. WRT the feel of Event DVL against the skin, this may be moot for me, as I always wear a long sleeve shirt year round to defend against tick and mosquito borne diseases, so I do not expect the feel of 2.5 will be a significant issue.

[Eric Blumensaadt]

I like REI's eVent Kimtah parka and pants. Not UL but light and tough and a good price, esp. on a 20% off sale.

I distrust Marmot's proprietary WPB membranes having seen some delaminate after one year on two friend's parkas.

[Woubeir (from Europe)]

And I remember way too many reports about Marmot not warranting their stuff.

[steven franchuk]

The jacket is constructed of Marmot's proprietary Membrain Strata fabric, which has a 20,000/20,000 waterproof / breathability rating"

keep in mind the breathability rating for none air permeable fabric is the best case rating. Non A Permeable Polyurethane fabrics need a humidity differential to work. The 20,000 breathability rating will only occur when the interior of the jacket is at very high humidity levels. And at that point some condensation is likely. At low humidity levels the Membrain Strata fabric will have a breathability rating considerably below 20,000.

Event in comparison is Air permeable. It's breathability is always the same no mater what the humidity level is inside or outside the jacket. So for the Event jacket it has maximum breathability the instant you put it on.

At equivelent workout levels and identical weather conditions you are more likely to be more comfortable in an Event Jacket than a Membrain strata jacket.

[Stephen Murphy]

Based on all the info on this thread, and the features of the EMS Air Flow jacket, I am feeling pretty good about it at $149. The MH Plasmic at $70 would be awesome if it had the pit zips I prefer. Given Event DVL's breathability perhaps pit zips are not necessary. Thoughts?

[Woubeir (from Europe)]

Ventilation openings like e.g. pit zips are a personal choice. Some find that with eVent they are not necessary, others do still find them necessary. But, important, it is still not sure that Dry Q EVAP = eVent DVL. OK, they look similar, but that's all we're sure of wright now. And EVAP is also used by MHW and it has there too that known and distinct appearance.

So maybe, let's first see if Dry Q EVAP is air-permeable.

[steven franchuk]

"Given Event DVL's breathability perhaps pit zips are not necessary. Thoughts?"

That has been my experience. With my old Gortex packlite jacket I always used the pit zips. My new Event jacket doesn't have any pit zips and I have not yet found myself wishing it had them.

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