The never ending search for alternative rain gear

Couple notes here, Justin. I don't want to see these thoughts get buried, and I'm not criticizing, just trying to flesch/flush out a good answer for you.

#1. The niche of people who know what all these acronyms mean is slim. You either need to introduce fabrics to the conversation with a layman's description, or at the very least, a disclaimer of "I'm only looking for help if you know what UMHPVUEPVHE is."

#2. It seems to me that the problem with a houdini rain jacket wasn't when the jacket was dry and a drop penetrated. The problem occurs when you are wearing a soaked Houdini. You have a layer that weighs 3x as much, stuck to your baselayer, sopping and dripping and cooling you down significantly through (convection???) and defeating the purpose of any baselayer underneath. I think your logic is flawed.

#3. If theoretical camping was all we needed to do, a great many things like hydrophobic down and ultra-thin aluminum foil windscreens and 4-inch tent stakes would drop our baseweights and keep us cozy. Sadly, the gap between theory and reality is often high. While it might seem like the properties of these fabrics are obvious in your living room, performance in the field is a very different animal that should be respected. I would TEST this theory before even bringing it up for scruple.

#4. I find that my raincoat is for preventing hypothermia. If it's so warm out that a rain shell over a baselayer is too much, I just take off the rain shell and get wet. A thin baselayer dries in 20 minutes of hiking.

#5. I love Neoshell. Try it out!

I like a wool base layer under a windshirt.
I think the problem is having a system that dries too fast and you get rapidly cooled at inconvenient times. For a slight drizzle drying fast is good and you will maintain a dryness, but if you get drenched in a quick shower and the rain stops, and then you start pumping out that moisture with your highly efficient wicking system, you get reeeaaaalllly cold.

> but it's too warm for temps above 50 i think.
Just get wet. You won't die.

Cheers

"I find that my raincoat is for preventing hypothermia. If it's so warm out that a rain shell over a baselayer is too much, I just take off the rain shell and get wet. A thin baselayer dries in 20 minutes of hiking."

Perfectly stated. In fact, when it's warm, getting wet actually feels GOOD!

Max, UHMWPE equals dyneema, spectra, or the cheaper, lesser quality generic versions from China etc. It's a form of Polyethylene plastic. The PE part on the end stands for polyethylene, the rest is ultra high molecular weight. Polyethylene in general has some very similar, and yet very different properties than Polypropylene. They are both extremely hydrophobic and very light weight materials. This is why Dri Ducks, Frogg Toggs, O2, etc. polypropylene based rain wear doesn't require a DWR coating–the high innate hydrophobic level of the material. But because these are non woven forms of polypropylene, they tend to be fragile. Woven forms of polypropylene tend to be significantly stronger and more durable though–but i've yet to see rain wear using woven forms.

The main difference between ultra high molecular weight polyethylene and polypropylene besides the massive difference in strength/durability, is that UHMW polyethylene is extremely heat conductive in nature and P.P. is extremely thermally non conductive. This makes the former lend itself well to warmer weather activities and the latter to cold weather activities.

Regarding number 2. Under heavy and long enough rain the outer fabric of most every kind of WPB rain jacket will eventually wet out and get soaked with water. But the membranes will still prevent water ingress through to the skin, but meanwhile if you're active and it's a bit warmer than "cold", you will wet it out via sweat because the breathablity of a soaked fabric plus membrane equal pretty poor.

At least with a soaked houdini or the like, and a more breathable midlayer (in this case polypropylene), the breathablity still remains fairly high.

Regarding number 3. Apparently you missed my question at the end? I was asking if others had already experimented with a similar set up, and if so, what was their experience. If a bunch of other people have already tried it and found it didn't work, then probably no point in wasting time in even trying it to begin with–hence i'm interested in more than just theory. Oh, i like theorizing, but at the end of the day i'm also deeply practical and more experiential based.

The fact that i haven't seen anyone here talk about using a similar set up though, inclines to me believe that it probably hasn't been tried a lot, hence the specific question directed to all of BPL.

Re: 4. Yah, i agree, when it's warm enough out, that's what i do, just get wet–especially when it's 70+ out. However, there's that range of temps with rainy conditions from about 45 to 65 or so for the high of daytime, which depending on the type of rain involved, can be tricky even if you're active. Especially if it's a cold rain. You can get hypothermic even at those temps. Even if it's 65 high for daytime temp, in the mountains, it can quickly drop a lot more when it starts to get dark. But that temp range i find is too warm for most WPB systems that i've tried.

Neoshell looks interesting, but it tends to be pretty expensive and there is a growing concern about the long term durability of these kind of membranes. I also like the idea of using a umbrella with a partially opened windjacket (or half poncho), but there are times when i like my hands free too. Some have rigged up an attachment system to their packs, but since i regularly cycle between 3 different packs, i would have to rig up three different systems. Conventional ponchos are ok, but still find them a bit over warm at that specific range. Would love to try the eVent packa, but it's pretty expensive and fairly heavy.

I just don't think we have reached the pinnacle of WPB rain gear systems, which is why i like trying to explore alternatives to same. I have high hopes for UHMW polyethlene eventually being used as an outer material, and maybe also as a mid layer next to outer layer for WPB systems, but if a company goes with Dyneema or Spectra brand it will be really expensive (more because these are "brand names", than actual cost of the material itself). If someone used a generic no name brand of UHMW polyethylene fiber in combo with polypropylene fiber to construct such garments, should be fairly reasonably priced. Meanwhile, polypropylene though not ideal like UHMWPE, in the woven (and stronger and more durable) forms still has a lot of potential i think for cheaper WPB systems.

Justin B., i think that is a valid concern and point. Perhaps this is where polypropylene can shine?

Besides wool and alpaca, polypropylene is the only other material that i've found that truly has some "warmth when wet" properties. I'm guessing that this is related to a combo of it's interesting properties of being very thermally non conductive (the least conductive of any commonly used garment material) and very hydrophobic–the only water it "absorbs" is in between the fibers.

It also doesn't wick well at all unless the fibers are altered. The combo of these, provided its in a thin enough form as to be not too warm, might make it more ideal for those conditions?

There is still the problem of stink when using it as a midlayer though.

Justin,

Do you think perhaps it's the non-woven nature of the polypropylene that allows the manufacturer to perforate it to make it WPB? What makes you think a woven UHMW will lend itself to similar manufacturing practices? Could they therefore do it with nylon fabric to keep the costs down compared to UHMW, or does nylon lack the crucial hydrophobic properties – and would a DWR make up for that?

Great questions Nathan. Yes to the first question. To the 2nd question, I would use it in a different manner. If you could create a wind jacket using UHMWPE fiber, something similar to the houdini but a little tighter weaved and no rip stop, and combine that witb a thin, semi breathable garment also made out of UHMWPE fiber that goes next to the outer layer, the combo along with a thin cool, highly wicking, highly breathable baselayer might be enough to keep rain from getting to your skin-similar in a way to a paramo system but cooler.

The question is, can UHMWPE material be made into super fine fibers that are required to make a good wind jacket. I've also heard there are some problems with weaving the stuff because its so slippery.

In any case, you could substitute woven polypropylene for the above system and with the outer jacket put some UHMWPE fiber mixed in to increase strength and longevity much as they do with some nylon pack materials mixed with a little dyneema. Using mostly PP would significantly lower the cost too, but at the expense of coolness of the fabric, and overall longevity/durability.

Nylon requires a DWR too much to be a more ideal material, compared to PE and PP it might as well be borderline hydrophillic.

"If you could create a wind jacket using UHMWPE fiber, something similar to the houdini but a little tighter weaved and no rip stop,"

UHMW fiber is called Spectra or Dyneema. Fabrics made from woven spectra yarns are already commercially available. I've got a pack made from the stuff. Is this what you mean or are you talking about some other process, like using thin UHMW sheet?

"UHMW fiber is called Spectra or Dyneema."

I would rephrase that a bit. Spectra and Dyneema are the brand names of types of UHMWPE material made and licensed by Honywell and DSM corporation. There are also non big brand name Chinese companies that make various products with UHMWPE material, which tend to be A LOT cheaper than the branded Spectra and Dyneema products. I've *heard* that DSM and Honeywell do make superior products with this material though.

"Fabrics made from woven spectra yarns are already commercially available. I've got a pack made from the stuff. Is this what you mean or are you talking about some other process, like using thin UHMW sheet?"

Yes, i'm talking about woven stuff, and yes there are fabrics already made, but to my knowledge, none of these are using more ultra fine fibers (which is important for a good windjacket or outer shell) or in very tight weaves required for something like a wind jacket/outer shell. The pack material usually has some kind of resin or expoxy applied to it to make it water proof and to hold the fibers together better, because this material is so innately slippery. They make iceless skating rinks out of this stuff!

I don't know if they have developed a process yet to make more ultra fine fibers and yarns. If anyone knows, please let me know. I have some sleeves made out of all dyneema yarns, but the yarns are larger gauge and not tightly woven.

In any case, we are getting far afield from my main question and post concept. It was using a thin, woven polypropylene ls shirt as a midlayer to help prevent water ingress using a more breathable shell like a windjacket.

As mentioned previously, i've given up hope of any company using UHMWPE material to make rain or wind based garments anytime soon, whether woven or like a Tyvek type process of flash spun (Dupont's Tyvek uses UHMWPE's older cousin, HDPE/high density polyethylene to make many of their tyvek products in a flash spun process with the fibers. I'm not certain that process is possible with the UHMW version of the material or not, but if it is, that would be another area and process to look at for rain and wind garment gear. From what i've read, you have to be real careful with heating UHMWPE material because if you go over a certain temp even just slightly, you quickly start to lose the molecular orientation which gives it it's crazy strength and abrasion resistance).

As you might already realize, once a woven fabric is totally saturated it is no longer breathable. That is the problem with even the most breathable waterproof garments (wet by condensation) all the way to something not even waterproof like a shirt.

Ever try breathing through a Buff or solid fabric balaclava in more humid (albeit still cold) climes? When the Buff gets damp, it becomes difficult to breathe. Once it is soaking wet, breathing is all but impossible.

What we really need is better, more permanent, DWR, or in other words, fabrics with no ability to be saturated while still being air permeable.

It certainly decreases quite a bit, but in cases of fabric made from very hydrophobic fiber/material like PP and PE, the fibers themselves don't absorb any moisture, so don't swell unlike natural fibers like cotton, and the water caught in between the fibers is somewhat dynamic.

So i would say, there is still a world's difference in breathablity between a overwhelmed, soaked shell WPB system with a membrane and one which starts off as truly breathable but the shells outer/DWR gets overwhelmed.

See Paramo and users of same attest to that difference. Where Paramo starts to run into trouble is when the force of the rain is too great, or the DWR of the inner pumpliner starts to wear out.

"What we really need is better, more permanent, DWR, or in other words, fabrics with no ability to be saturated while still being air permeable."

Somebody may eventually develop a DWR that is both truly a super DWR and more truly permanent but i think that day is likely still far off.

Meanwhile, we have forms of PP and PE, and they come closest to that in their natural state, but their potential is largely untapped except for some non woven forms like Frogg Toggs etc for PP or Tvyek's for PE, which all lack durability and longevity.

What i would like to see happen is a blending of the concept of Frogg Toggs with something like that of Paramo WPB systems using the innate extreme hydrophobic qualities of PP and/or PE (preferably in the form of UHMW, but woven HDPE might suffice) but in the woven forms which greatly increase durability and longevity. An untapped potential!

Think about how fast two thin layers of PP and/or PE based garments would dry even if completely soaked? If one could replicate a sort of pumpliner ala Paramo style out of one of these fabrics but thinner and cooler and not ever need to apply DWR, but only to wash dirt and oil out of same, i think that would be a pretty cool step forward.

Think about the great flexibility of such a two piece system made solely out of those materials. Drizzling, fine, just use the outer as a windjacket and put the "pump liner" away.

DWR's so far suck and personally i dislike having to buy and reapply same (which is one of the things i like about Frogg Toggs not needing to do that), or having it almost completely wash out on a trip.

Stink would be an issue with an all PP and/or PE based two piece rain gear system, but a Polygiene treatment would help a lot with that.

Justin,
Just get an umbrella and be done with it. :)

Haha…, yes, i've used an umbrella with windjacket before and do like it. But as i mentioned earlier, sometimes i like my hands free (i somewhat often use poles). I know some folks rig systems wherein they attach the umbrella to their packs, but as mentioned i regularly cycle between 3 different packs and so would have to come up with 3 different systems. I'm too lazy for that.

….What we really need are forcefields ala Star Wars or the like! :P

You would sacrifice the ability to use your umbrella so that you can hold those hand weights/earth tillers instead?!!!!! [gasp!]

[more gasping]

[fainting]

[coming to]

[fainting again]

[hitting life alert button]

When we were in Costa Rica recently, we climbed Cerro Chato, which is a fairly small volcano with not a lot of elevation, but since it was raining, since it was so muddy and steep at times, boy did i wish for some poles…and i wasn't even using an umbrella (well, i brought one but only used it very briefly). There were a couple of times where i felt and probably looked a bit like that lady in the pic….

Give up. There is no perfect rain gear. Get a poncho.

"Get a poncho."

Nick,

How do you avoid getting a poncho shredded by cacti? Use a waist cord and avoidance? Or is there another secret?

I don't use a separate waist cord with my poncho. If I'm hiking uphill, the back of the poncho sometimes gets caught on things. I take the back two corners, bring them around front and tie them at my waist (or use a biner to attach the corners together). That pulls the back of the poncho up under the bottom of the pack, preventing snagging, but keeping the pack dry.

If I'm overheated or the front of the poncho is snagging on anything, I'll roll the front up and tuck it in the "waist cord" (that was created by tying the back two corners together).

Hard to beat a poncho IMO.

Keep in mind that most ponchos are big enough to fit over a huge pack and then go down to your knees.Bob's methods work and so does a waist cord. My zPacks poncho/ground sheet is the perfect size and fairly short… in cold rain I now wear a kilt under it. I can even descend desert canyons and ravines where there is no trail fairly easily.

A WPB poncho this is both UL and durable, would be awesome and i certainly would go for that.

My experience with ponchos as either been with the completely waterproof and not breathable kinds (silnylon and cuben fiber) or the Frog Togg type poncho which is not that durable.

I've looked at the eVent Packa. Looks really nice, but is pretty expensive and fairly heavy. Besides, if i'm using something like a poncho, i really don't need something as breathable as eVent.

Why no one has filled the gap with a lighter but durable and semi breathable poncho, i don't know. You don't even have to use an expensive material. I can understand a completely waterproof and non breathable poncho if you're also using it as part of your shelter system.

While there may not be a "perfect" WPB system out there or even possible, there is always room for improvement.

Because I think eVent material is the closest you are going to get to what you are describing – and it isn't cheap.

Breathable and Waterproof are pretty close to antonyms. The thing I love about a poncho (besides the weight savings) is that the extra airspace allows them to breathe much better than the average rain jacket.

"The thing I love about a poncho (besides the weight savings) is that the extra airspace allows them to breathe much better than the average rain jacket."

That's my point, you have increased breathability from the flapping and extra, open air space, so you don't really need the much more breathable and much more expensive WPB fabrics like eVent, neoshell, etc as is necessary for a jacket or pants. However, to say that ponchos couldn't benenit by using at least a semi breathable fabric, i think is a limited view. You still get plenty warm and sweaty in a poncho, at least i have.

A cheaper WPB fabric would work fine to increase comfort. I don't know about weight though. Coated fabrics would tend, i think, to be lighter than membrane based ones.

I am agreeing with your point. I'm saying once you find a cheaper, lighter, breathable, and waterPROOF fabric please let me know.

We could make millions…