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Brass vs Aluminum Threads on Upright Canister Stoves

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Viewing 16 posts - 1 through 16 (of 16 total)
PostedMay 6, 2014 at 10:28 am

I'm shopping for an upright canister stove, and have gotten hung-up on thread wear and thread failure of the stoves. Maybe it shouldn't be a hang-up–don't know if it's trivial or significant. Several questions:

Is this info on my three leading contenders, correct?

1. SP GigaPower GS-100, 3.2 oz, BRASS threads.
2. SP LiteMax GST-120, 2.0 oz, ALUMINUM threads.
3. MSR MicroRocket, 2.6 oz, ALUMINUM threads.

Are brass threads stronger/wear longer than **hard anodized** aluminum threads? Ie, is there really a big difference in durability here? I've read reports of both aluminum AND brass threads on canister stoves giving up the ghost.

Is the recommended way of reducing thread wear still: (1) to cap/clean the canister, (2) to silicone-grease (aka clear plumber's grease) the threads [debatable!], and (3) to tighten gently?

PostedMay 6, 2014 at 10:32 am

what was the report of how many uses before failure? I'm curious myself. I have a pocket rocket circa 2011 and have not had a problem with it paying no attention to how clean the canister threads were, no silicone, or even "gently" tightening…

PostedMay 6, 2014 at 10:35 am

Oh, the reports are scattered all over BPL. I remember it was Roger who reported the failure of brass threads on one of his stoves. Others report failures of aluminum. I recollect most thread failures reported after months or years of use. I've pulled random quotes during my research, here are some:

"The thread on the stove will wear out and then you won't be able to screw down the stove onto the cannister tight enough any more"

"steer clear of stoves with an all-aluminium base"

"I was in the middle of France with a GST100 which eventually just fell off the canister" (–Roger??)

"MSR pocket rocket but after about half a year the thread was wearing out"

" I don't think the thread issue is going away any time soon…Another option of course is something like a Superfly which will work with threaded canisters but does not use threads" — Hikin Jim

" Tightening hard wears the thread out FAST" — Roger

" If the thread is aluminium, that risk is magnified." – Stuart

PostedMay 6, 2014 at 10:37 am

I would get the MSR just by the knowledge of their customer service department would back you up in any failure of the threads or anything else.

USA Duane Hall BPL Member
PostedMay 6, 2014 at 10:41 am

I have a few old stoves from the '20's and '30's forward, seem to be ok. Of course, before isobutane was developed, maybe the gas or kerosene helped.
Duane

Roger Caffin BPL Member
PostedMay 6, 2014 at 2:43 pm

> it was Roger who reported the failure of brass threads on one of his stoves.
Guilty as charged m'lud. The quotes are correct.

I think the brass threads last a lot longer than the aluminium ones. The anodising on the aluminium bodies is supposed to protect the softer Al, but it fails after a while, flakes off, and then blooey.

That said, the stove I wore out had seen an awful lot of use over many years! For lots of walkers it will be a complete non-issue. You may be worrying too much.

Cheers

PostedMay 6, 2014 at 7:40 pm

Probably worrying too much. That's a pattern.

So I'll silicone grease the threads [or not; on second thought this might not be a good idea, see below], not overly tighten, and replace the stove in 5-10, that's OK.

Stuart R BPL Member
PostedMay 7, 2014 at 12:33 am

"I would get the MSR just by the knowledge of their customer service department would back you up in any failure of the threads or anything else."

It was GermanTourist who had the threads wear off a Pocket Rocket when used every day for just a few months. The thing that really pissed her off tho', was that MSR would NOT replace the stove. So, b0ll0cks customer service.

PostedMay 7, 2014 at 10:47 am

I read her PR thread-fail report too. Problem is, we have no idea what MSR saw when that PR was shipped in. For all we know, she was using the PR as a hammer for her tent stakes. For all we know, she asked MSR for a new stove to replace a well-worn one, and was turned down. The problem is that onesy-twosy anecdotes aren't terribly diagnostic–including my own anecdote, which was that MSR cheerfully rebuilt my 1980s-vintage Whisper stove for a pittance, and tossed in a new pump for free. So in my case, I got great CS.

But if you string all the anecdotes together, you do see a pattern of thread-fail on heavily used canister stoves–due to the unfortunate threading system chosen for them, and soft materials for the screw threads, with abrasive substances thrown in to the mix.

I'll bet that in 5 years, when my threads fail, I'll have my heart set on a new super-stove anyway. As others have said, many of these lightweight items, you have to consider as semi-consumables that need to be recycled at their end-of-life.

Stuart R BPL Member
PostedMay 8, 2014 at 8:01 am

"I'll bet that in 5 years, when my threads fail…"

It all depends on how often you use that stove. If you use it for a two week trip plus a few weekends per year, then I'm sure you will get five years out of it.
On the other hand, if you plan to use it every day for several months, I would look for a brass thread.

Incidently, the real cause of the problem is the canister – it has a very shallow thread rolled into the valve connector which only engages the tip of the thread on the stove. Once the tip of the thread wears off, failure results.

PostedMay 8, 2014 at 10:48 am

I got curious about whether thread fail is covered under MSR warrantee, so called Cascade Designs and asked. The answer I got was:

"If the aluminum threads fail on our stoves, that's definitely a warrantee situation, unless the stove is smashed-up otherwise."

USA Duane Hall BPL Member
PostedMay 8, 2014 at 10:56 am

How many people are out more than a week or a few times a year? Bpers are a small minority, then subtract how many actually get out a bunch every year. Gear is going to last a life time then.
Duane

PostedMay 8, 2014 at 4:29 pm

A few thoughts on this after some research, being a self-styled "minor machinist" and interested in metals:

(1) About "shallow threads." Machinists generally aim to cut threads with 50% engagement on steel; threads on aluminum and brass often formed around 75% engagement. If you look at the threads (brass or aluminum) on your stove, you'll notice the roots are deeper, whereas the roots on your canister are shallower. But I'm not convinced this is necessarily bad, or out-of-spec. Plus, I'm almost certain the threads on the canister are rolled (and I believe rolled threads often have a shallower minor diameter).

I have a hunch the primary issue with thread failure on the stove is simply the steel canister vs. brass or aluminum, mixed with abrasives (dirt) in the threads…obviously, over time, brass, and raw aluminum, would wear faster than the steel. If thread failure were an ongoing problem, you'd expect to see a steel insert used on stove threads. That would be a low-cost, low-weight option, so their absence makes me wonder if thread failure on stoves isn't rare.

This also makes me wonder if the idea of lubing the threads with silicone grease is good or bad. That would almost certainly cause contaminants (dirt) to adhere to the threads. I wonder if a good blow-off, followed by a simple wipe of the threads with the bandana wouldn't be best.

(2) What I haven't figured out yet is whether there is a brass vs. aluminum advantage. Brass is harder than aluminum in its raw state, and has more lubricity, but the aluminum is typically hard anodized, which can approach steel ranges in hardness. Researching this, I've found multiple anodizers who state a good aluminum hard anodize can reach an equivalent on the Rockwell C scale of 50-70, which is very hard. That's knife blade hard. Of course, it may only be 4 mils thick or less (which is why you'd never see hard anodized aluminum used as a knife–sharpening would take off the hard layer). But that hardness should make the stove threads quite wear resistant.

Brass is measured on the lower Rockwell B scale, usually 55-90B, but even 90B doesn't reach the lower numbers of the C scale. 94 on B scale is equivalent to 15 on C scale. So brass is *considerably* softer than hard anodized aluminum. And yet, brass seems to work just fine most of the time. Calling into question again whether hardness of the threads is the issue.

If anodization were to "flake off," that would represent a failure of the hard anodize. That shouldn't happen. A hard anodize should wear away slowly and gradually, not come off in chunks. Because it is not a treatment that is resting on the surface, like paint. A good hard anodize achieves about 50% penetration into the surface, and the other 50% builds up on top of the surface. So if you see chunks of anodization leaving your stove, I'd say that's a good reason to warrantee it.

Torquing down hard on the threads is a different issue–hardness of the outer skin of aluminum would not protect it from deformation. Now we're talking powerful wedging and deformation action on the threads, and I can imagine that causing a thread fail of either aluminum or brass in short order.

So thinking this through from the perspective of metallurgy, the two killers of stove threads that seem most obvious would be:

(1) Dirt acting as an abrasive — so blow and wipe the threads before attachment–perhaps not lubricate with anything. And use the plastic cap on the canister.

(2) Over-torquing — because neither aluminum nor brass have great shear strength. In some instructions I see that the stove body should be finger tightened by the stove's base–the stove is tightened onto the canister, not the other way around. I can imagine if you held the stove stationary in one hand with a firm grip around the head or body, and torqued on the canister with the other, you could greatly increase torque because the canister has a much larger diameter.

Hikin’ Jim BPL Member
PostedDec 12, 2014 at 8:22 pm

I do notice that higher end stoves typically have brass threads. Some mid range and even lower range stoves have brass too, but all of high end stoves have brass. I suppose that says something.

I also see the point that for the average person who spends, say, less than 30 nights on the trail per year, that it may not really matter.

I use my stoves a lot, typically every week, and I’m often doing multiple stoves and multiple boils just because I’m a stove geek and like to play with things. However, I have a lot of stoves, so the wear isn’t on any one stove. Well, that and I like alcohol stoves too.

HJ
Adventures in Stoving
Hikin Jim’s Blog

Roger Caffin BPL Member
PostedDec 13, 2014 at 1:28 am

Not sure I agree with everything Delmar wrote, but I do agree with his two points at the end, mostly.

Hard-anodised aluminium is probably harder than silcon dioxide crystals – a standard grinding wheel is aluminium oxide. So Alox can beat sand at first. Keep the threads clean – too right.

Over-torquing – every bit of it. The Alox layer is hard – but the aluminium underneath is soft. When the Alox layer fails it is actually the Al underneath yielding, so the really hard but very thin layer on the surface loses its support.

Cheers

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