Lightweight Affordable Tarps

[Lawson Kline]

I would say about the size of a Nalgene bottle after using it a few times.. When new, quite a bit smaller.. Honestly its comparable to a cuben or silnylon tarp of similar size.. I can take a photo tomorrow..

[Anonymous]

I'm going to be real blunt with you Lawson. My impression of this situation. You see an opportunity to by a cheap material for really cheap, and turn around and sell it for a higher profit margin than other materials. You want it to work, you want people to be interested, and it's aggravating/irking you that you are not getting the feedback and interest that you want.

Meanwhile, most here are trying to give you constructive and honest feedback of which you asked for and you turn around and have acted more than a little snarky, defensive, and condescending at times. Really no need for it. Sorry for the recent stress in your life, but try not to take it out on others.

Most of us here know what 1443R tyvek is, and sometimes it's referred to as kite tyvek, because it's not uncommon for folks to source it from kite shops. Still doesn't change that it's got less tensile strength and durability than home wrap tyvek, which in turn is still less than silnylon. It's more or less a throw away material and not even technically waterproof! While my experience with it for a bivy was less than ideal because of my wife's carelessness, i still think it has some potential as a bivy material if more babied (again, still best to either use on top of a pad, and/or on top of polycryo). Have you considered that application at all?

[Roger Caffin]

> an opportunity to by a cheap material for really cheap, and turn around and sell
> it for a higher profit margin than other materials
You know, you may just have forgotten a small detail here. The amount of labour it takes to convert blank fabric, of whatever source, into a finished and tested product. Or are you expecting Lawson's time and effort to come for free?

Cheers

[James Marco]

I can well understand the need to make higher proffits than larger businesses. Where a large business can get buy with 5-10% profit margins, Lawson needs to make 50% or more. And I can understand his frustration with the people here because none considers tyvec all that great as a tarp material. Even Henry Shires notes that his tyvek shelters are not waterproof, does not recomend them for hard rains, and he makes the bloody things.

Tyvec is a third rate material behind silnylon and cuben. I never consider the strech of silnylon to be a detriment except with larger canopies (over 10×10, roughly.) It only ever gets to be a problem is you are camping for more than one night somewhere. Then I may need to reposition stakes (takes about the same amount of time as adjustments.) In winds, the resiliancy means there is less wind hammer on the stakes, soo, they stay planted better. The simple act of raising the hiking staff will remove most of it from the inside. So, I don't consider tyvek all that good of a material. It doesn't strech enough to compensate for wind loads, nor occasional small branches comming down. It will pull up the stake, or, be punctured.

If the price were about 50% of a silnylon, I might use one knowing I would have to be very picky about campsites in the ADK's. Even then, for the couple ounce difference, I would probably go with silnylon. It is more durable and more reliable. Frankly, I don't think a tyvek tarp would be a good item for Lawson to make. He cannot make what he needs to make, nor will he be supplying a high quality product to customers. A bad combination.

[Jerry Adams]

Any business has large overhead. Retailers usually double the price.

It costs a lot for your building and equipment. Inventory. Sometimes people don't buy what you thought so you're stuck with stuff that's difficult to sell. Customers return stuff, sometimes you have to give them the benefit of the doubt on whether they mistreated it.

If your wife gets pregnant and you get distracted for a week people get impatient and start writing unfavourable things about you on forums : )

I appreciate Lawson and Roger and other people that are trying to sell innovative stuff.

And I don't think Tyvek is a good material for a tarp, but that's just my opinion. Good material for a rain jacket. Although if there was some property that caused it to have much less condensation inside it might make sense.

[todd]

All I know is it's one great looking tarp.

If this keeps direct rain off of you, it's a winner. Dimensions are like a SpinnTwinn design. The weight is good. Comparing it to an 8×10 sil tarp is no good comparison at all, IMO, given the cut and overall design. It's well documented that square/rectanglular tarps and cat-cut tarps perform differently.

If someone uses it, determines it's got good waterproofness, and reports back accordingly, then many will buy it, I believe.

[Matt Allen]

What he said. I can't believe I missed this thread for so long. I have ordered products from Lawson for years, and have had nothing but fantastic experiences.

The shelter looks interesting. Some of you keep going on and on about how it is Kite Tyvek… have any of you actually used it as a shelter? It is easy to knock something based off specs alone, but I think it would be of great value to the community if we had actual real world use on these shelters.

[James Marco]

BTW, proffit is figured after ALL expenses.

I hope these can be tested both for new, and long term accilerated aging (say 50 washings.) I am not partial to anything. I just want something that will keep me 100% dry in rainy weather with moderate winds (up to 40mph,) something to cook a meal & hot drink, something that stays put and something to sleep under for less than a pound. I am sure Lawson can do it. He gave us the spiraled stakes and 3/4" pads, both good ideas.

[Anonymous]

Roger, 100 dollars for a tyvek tarp is pretty ridiculous imo.

Others may have a different opinion–i don't particularly care. In any case, mostly what i was addressing was his reactions to the honest and usually helpful feedback that others were giving him.

(edit to add, i have nothing personal against Lawson, this is the first time that i have spoken critically to or about him, and first time i've gotten involved in one of these Lawson centered dramas.)

[Lawson Kline]

Justin,

Your feedback about what happened with your bivy was exactly the kind of feedback I was looking for. People that have used the 1443R Tyvek for tarps, tents, bivy's, etc and their experience. Not negative feedback from people who have never used the material before in their lives… Your new to BPL. When I was new here, I was the same way and didn't know all the "characters", But now that I have been a member here for a few years, I have grown tired of a couple people that always having a descending opinion about everything…. It doesn't matter what the topic is. They just have to argue. Usually I try not to let it bother me but lately Dave U has annoyed me and his consistent barrage of negative comments were just like him throwing gas on a fire..

Your experience with Tyvek as a bivy is interesting. You say it didn't work as a bivy material because of your wife's carelessness, but that it has some potential as a bivy material.. So what am I missing? My experience with a few Tyvek bivy's have been more than favorable. They are no means as durable as one made from a woven breathable material, but for their low weight, compact size, and how breathable the material is they do work pretty good. That said, I find the material to work better as a tarp since a tarp is under no abrasion and like I said before, I built myself a tyvek tarp about 5 years back and it has held up fine under general use.. I always thought of the material as a cheaper, quieter, but heavier spinnaker cloth..

While I do take some offence to your comments about me buying a cheap material and pushing it to make a high profit margin… I am actually glad you mentioned it because this is the furthest from the truth.

I can actually make ALOT more "profit" making silnylon and cuben tarps. I know your not going to believe me so here is the break down as numbers do not lie. Tyvek costs $3.00yd buying 1,000 yards of it.. That price does not include shipping. Freight is another $250+ so lets call it $3.25 a yard. The tarp in the photo uses 6 yards of material. That means Tyvek alone costs $19.50. Now the tarp is bonded and I use a very expensive roll adhesive that costs me $25 a roll buying a case of 72. The tarp in the photo takes exactly 15 yards of adhesive, which is 1/4 of the roll, or $6.25 in just roll adhesive.. Next is 8 patches at all the corners. For the tarp in the photo I used a Sailcloth material that utilizes Technora Fibers and costs $20 yard. Now I don't feel like breaking down the cost, buy my guess is all 8 patches cost about $2.00 in material since it seems like I can get 80 patches per yard. And then there is the adhesive to stick the patches to the tarp. This is another $1.00 since there is some waste with mixing as its two part.. Next comes webbing. A 100 yard roll of webbing is roughly $20. Each of the 8 tieout's use 5" of webbing or 40" total. So another $.25. Next comes LineLoc 3 buckles. They are $.20 each when buying them in bulk. So another $1.60 for buckles. Last but not least, 2 high quality spur grommets. These are set in the webbing at the ridgeline for the trekking poles.. They cost $.15 each also buying in bulk for a total of $.30. So for a grand total of $30.90 + some money I am not including for shipping of the other materials to me. So lets just call it an even $32.00 for just materials.. Given that I work for free, I am making $68.00 off this tarp.. Sounds like highway robbery I know..

Now lets compare apples to apples here of making the exact same tarp in cuben fiber.. Using all the same numbers as above, except adding in the cost of the Cuben Fiber. When I use to buy it, I was paying roughly $18.00 a yard for cuben. So at 6 yards, the Cuben cost is $108. If you add $108 to $32.00 and then minus the $19.50 for the cost of the Tyvek you get a grand total of $120.50. Now this tarp takes the exact same amount of time to build using cuben or tyvek as its constructed the same way. And I use to sell the cuben version of this tarp for $275 and I couldn't keep them in stock. Again since I work for free, I made roughly $155 off the cuben version.

So I ask you, if this was just about money, don't you think I would still be making cuben fiber tarps? If your not familiar with me or my gear, I was one of the first companies to use cuben fiber. When I started there were just three companies doing it. Oware, MLD, and Zpack.. I made and sold cuben fiber drybags before Granite Gear. HMG wasn't even around then.

Basically, I am a new dad and now that I don't have all the extra money I use to, I am staring to think in terms of affordable gear. I just figured there might be some dad's out there like me that want lightweight gear, but just are on a budget. And when you figure the tarp in the photo weighs 11.3oz you get alot of bang for your buck. Plus when you figure the cost, it also comes with a stuff sack, 50' of my glowire, and 8 titanium tent stakes. That's $35 right there.. But this forum has taught me alot about BPL and its users. I was trying to make some affordable lightweight gear and I got ostracized for it..

[David Ure]

"They just have to argue. Usually I try not to let it bother me but lately Dave U has annoyed me and his consistent barrage of negative comments were just like him throwing gas on a fire.."

I brought up valid points of which I forced you to respond to get clarity. It took several posts by you when you could have been clear enough in one with sufficient due diligence. Whether you like it or not, in both threads any reader now has a clear picture of the situation. I have a sneaking feeling that you are now promptly responding to any emails that you receive. Excellent.

Whether you were annoyed really doesn't matter. But I have to ask, what's with the infatuation with me? I am intrigued by the sheer creepiness of it all.

[bjc]

Not sure if you would get enough buyers to make back your expenses and labor, but after doing some research about the material, it seems like an interesting idea. $100 might be worth the experiment to some of us. I suspect you know more than most of us about the possibilities of the material as well as whether or not it is a cost effective effort on your part. There are always naysayers, whether the idea is good or bad. And always others who will accuse you of being foolish, incompetent, deceitful, etc. Don''t let them determine how you build your brand. I'd say go for it, but it's not my money!

[Ryan Smith]

Thanks for sharing those figures Lawson and for also discussing the cold weather issues with 9485pc in the other thread. Those are the kind of posts I wish I saw around here more often. My advice for what it's worth – If you have a product idea, don't come on here and share it.

Regarding the tarp, I think it could have some applications in the right situations. Here in the Southeast, we have a lot of rain & wind, but we also have a lot of trees. So wind driven rain or wind in general isn't a big issue unless you camp on an open bald. Anyone doing that with a tarp is asking for trouble anyway. So, I think this material would do fine in my area even with its relatively low HH and tear strength.

Ryan

[Andy Anderson]

I think you have a nice product that appears to be fairly priced. It will be attractive to some people and some people are going to think its a terrible idea. Similar to the polycro tarps from a couple years ago. I think the best feature will be the waterproofness, which is in my opinion the weakest feature of silnylon.

[J-L]

Hey Lawson, my main concerns with the tyvek material would be waterproofness and durability. As far as I can tell, Tyvek 1443R is the same material used in the TarpTent Sublite, which TarpTent does not recommend for heavy rain. Has this not been your experience with tarps made of the material?

Perhaps more than a "lightweight affordable tarp", I would be very interested in a lightweight affordable pyramid tarp – something like a Duomid or SL2. If you made such a tarp – a mid that is lighter and cheaper than others on the market (and breathable to boot!) – then I suspect you may find a lot of customers willing to try it out. The steep walls of such a design may benefit the material.

[Jennifer Mitol]

One of the things I find most interesting here is that so much of BPL is critical of no one coming up with new ideas…

Then one of our own comes up with an idea and asks for feedback, then gets blasted for it.

I'm usually pretty sensitive to such things, but I really didn't see Lawson being terribly reactionary in a negative way.

I've had nothing but positive experiences with Lawson…..and whether I would buy a tyvek tarp or not (might be a good idea for someone like me who is still experimenting with such things…and may or may not like it…which means I certainly don't want to invest a ton of money in it), it's still nice to see people brainstorming with different materials or designs.

[Nathan Meyerson]

The post in which Lawson personally attacked three forum members was removed by a moderator.

I am wondering. Is there any demand for lightweight and affordable tarps? … So there might be some demand for a lightweight tarp that costs $75-$125 depending on size and model. Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.

All of this hyperbole in this thread could have been by-passed if you would have just made five of each of the tarps, brought them to market, and see if they sold or not. Market demand is usually the best judge. Clearly you already have the templates made, and the fabric is not all that expensive in the larger costs of running a business, so just make them and see if they sell. That's all the feedback you need – and you shouldn't have even needed it.

[Lawson Kline]

Roger don't you work for free too : )

James. Your right. I could make a 90% profit margin on every item and still not make ends meet. This is a full time side business for me and it really doesn't even pay for my time. While I have had better experience with Tyvek then most, I would never consider using Tyvek for a tent. But for a tarp, it really doesn't matter if its crazy waterproof or not, as if its raining hard, it will find a way in through the front and back.. Tarps in rough weather are not for the weak of heart.

Jerry. Yep I agree 100%. I wholesale my cord and stakes and the margin isn't as good as some would like. Its the reason only a few places sell them.. Most retailers want 50% and crazy terms. Like 90 days to pay..

Todd. Its a great design :) Best one on the market. But then again I might be biased haha. But I don't think it will ever sell based on the responses on here. Too many people with blinders on..

Matt. Same thing. Thanks for your continued business. No, everyone that has posted something negative about the material or how it won't work has never used it.. They just always have an opinion about everything. We all know the type…. Big bullies through email, over the phone, and on forums but not so much in person as they usually let their wives and girlfriends do the talking…

BJ. Probably not. It now seems like a gamble to me and I am not in a finical position to hope it will work.. I thought there might be some nay sayer's but not to this extent.

Ryan. No problem. I am sure that post is going to eventually generate some heat but what I said is 100% factual. I have an entire report from 3M with quite a few different types of tape and adhesive and how they work at 0F climates. Yeah I agree about not coming on here anymore.. The first place you will hear of product ideas is going to now be exclusively through my newsletter on my website. As far as the tarp goes, I also live in the Southeast and have primarily used it here with good success..

Andy. I agree. Most people think Silnylon and Cuben have some crazy high waterproofness ratings. This Tyvek tests higher than Westmarks Ultrasil which is the most commonly used silnylon by the cottage companies and Cuben Fiber. But obviously were both missing something….

John. I have not really considered making a mid out of the material. While it would be nice to have a lightweight breathable mid. I have a feeling it will be the same deal with the perception of the material. As far as waterproofness goes. A tarp made out of any material is going to let the worst weather in through the head and foot without a beak.. In my experience, when it light-normal rained it kept me dry. Heavy wind blown rain.. Well it came from the head and foot.

Jenifer. I agree. It certainly has changed my perception of the community as a whole. My focus was lightweight gear. But after this forum, I am started to wonder if I am beating my head against a wall for no reason at all. Maybe I should just start selling the gear I exclusively use myself. If people are interested great. If not, then oh well..

Nathan. I wish BPL would of kept it. I still stand behind what I said.. I have a feeling that you are mad that I posted something negative about reflective cuben fiber a few weeks back as I now know you are selling it through your website. I am sorry if it effected any sales as that was not my goal. But the first generation of the material delaminated.. Cubic Tech sold it to me as a 4 season material yet they used a water soluble adhesive and a nylon film. As a result it cost me ALOT of money in returns as they wouldn't stand behind the material and essentially put me out of the shelter business..

John. I agree. The problem is, it would be easy to sell 5-10 of them. But not 165 of them as that is what it would of required to buy the necessary materials to get the bulk discounts.. If I purchased the materials in any less quantity the price would not of justified making them. So essentially I was looking for feedback to see if there was any interest. If so, I could of ramped up production. Kind of like how people do with Kickstarter… I now know there is essentially none so I can move on to the next project.

[Nathan Meyerson]

No hard feelings between you and I Lawson. I just have a different perspective or you through watching this thread.

I wouldn't take anything naysayers say personally.

You lost a lot of business through a faulty fabric. I completely understand how frustrating that could be. I can learn from your shared experience and I am grateful for that.

After two months of testing, I still haven't found anything faulty with this new aluminized Cuben.

Hopefully your ttvek tarps won't have the same fate as your aluminized Cuben shelters.

I wish you the best of luck in your endeavors, (and new baby girl!)

Cheers,

Nathan

[Bob Gross]

"No, everyone that has posted something negative about the material or how it won't work has never used it."

Lawson, that is an outright lie.

When I purchase Tyvek 1443R from a kite shop and it doesn't work in my own back yard, then that is enough negative proof for me and I stop right there.

I said it before and I will say it again. I don't think it is a good material for tarps.

–B.G.–

[Ian]

"All of this hyperbole in this thread could have been by-passed if you would have just made five of each of the tarps, brought them to market, and see if they sold or not. Market demand is usually the best judge."

+1

Hi Lawson,

I'd first like to say that I've purchased a couple items from you and have found them to be high quality, delivered timely, and the customer service was above par.

Secondly, my son is NICU class of 2003 and fully appreciate what a mentally and emotionally exhausting time that can be. Hope your wife and child are doing well and send my best.

Please don't take this as a personal attack but a Tyvek tarp doesn't appeal to me at $100 and possibly not at half that. At that price point, I'd probably go silnylon. My concern with Tyvek, real or imagined, is that it wouldn't stand the test of time and become a disposable piece of gear. Also, as I migrate to lighter/smaller backpacks, I'm concerned about the packed size. The good news, as you mentioned, is that it packs up to the size of a Nalgene bottle which is smaller than I imagined it would be.

Advice is free for a reason and here's mine… As John mentioned in the quote above, I'd just make some and see what the market has to say about your product. It looks like you feel you're on to something with Tyvek so I'd have a couple of your tarps used and abused in the field and post a YouTube video of the results. I'll admit that I'm not optimistic but am openminded enough to be proven wrong.

Some more free advice… my wife's second full time job is making jewelry. It's her passion so I get to see first hand how much of her labor is recuperated at a sub minimum wage rate. Not trying to over simplify what you're trying to do here as the mere sight of a sewing machine is enough to send me into a panic attack but if you can refine the process enough to where you can sell these tarps for under $75, preferably under $50, you may find a sweet spot in the market.

This is all well outside my professional area of expertise so just some wild @$$ speculation from a consumer. Take it FWIW.

Good luck and take care either way.

[Bob Gross]

"My concern with Tyvek, real or imagined, is that it wouldn't stand the test of time and become a disposable piece of gear."

Agreed, about Tyvek 1443R.

–B.G.–

[Steofan M]

The dimensions of your tyvek tarp fit my requirements. I had a slightly smaller spin tarp from 2010 until this last weekend when the corner tieouts came off in a windstorm (your long ti stakes held, but the stitching on the tarp failed).
I'm interested.
I've ordered from you in the recent past so you have my email. Let me know if you decide to go ahead with this, would you?
Thanks!

@Lawson,

Totally understand.

Dave from MilesGear sells some pretty sweet tyvek bivies and I have almost ordered one a couple of times. They fall into the mid-price-range and he seems to still be able to keep the doors open, so perhaps you are shooting for a market niche that just does not really exist at this point.

(ps: I too would not order one if it used Tyvek 1443R – I have tested that here in the Redwoods and it failed even a two hour rain test)

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