huntinglight? sub 4 pound centerfire rifle

[Dave @ Oware]

"Most of the lightweight builds are over 6 pounds, so under 4 pounds is a seriously light AR."

– See more at: http://www.alloutdoor.com/2014/04/22/battle-arms-development-announces-sub-4-pound-ar-15-prototype/?utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=Email&utm_content=2014-04-29&utm_campaign=Weekly+Newsletter#sthash.UspXZMV6.dpuf"

[Michael Gunderloy]

Henry AR-7 comes in at closer to 3 pounds. Of course it doesn't have that tacticool factor going for it…

http://rockymountainbushcraft.blogspot.com/2014/02/the-henry-ar-7-survival-rifle-reliable.html has a decent review.

[Dave @ Oware]

Can't take big game with a rimfire. Some states (CA) allow the 223 for big game and 223 could be made into 6mm or above pretty easily.

[Luke Schmidt]

Looks like its still a functioning "battle rifle" (although I doubt you'd really take that to war). For hunting I bet you could make it even lighter if it was single shot or bolt action.

[robert van putten]

Heck, yer average 'ol garden verity Winchester 30-30 with a twenty inch tube is only about six pounds. It is a heck of a hunting gun just as it is.

Your average 16" Rossi 1892 lever action carbine weighs about 4.8 pounds or less. I imagine the .45 colt caliber might be the lightest, depending upon the profile of the barrel on the .357 version.

A feller could lighten one up to the tune of a pound or more by removing most or all of the front hand guard, skeletonizing or replacing the butt with one of lightweight composite and so forth.

Besides, I'd take a lever action over any AR anyway! :)

[Dave @ Oware]

Any links? Show me another centerfire rifle as light.

2 lbs extra with no scope and heavier ammo is not ultralight.

[David Adair]

Whoa there Bob. For the time being let's ignore the fact that your level action guns don't even have a shoulder thing that goes up. The fact is that you are already heavily invested in leather goods, wheel guns, holsters, scabbards, chaps, belts hats and such.

In your case the important issue is that carrying an AR is gonna wreck havoc with the rest of your ensemble. But, for many young people out there it is not too late to invest in cordura and polymer framed pistols. Times change, John Wyane out Zombies in. Kinds makes you sad does't it?

[David Chenault]

That is a seriously light rifle. It'll be interesting to see how it runs and shoots under field conditions. In my book .223 is not much of a big game cartridge, especially since I'm assuming that proprietary AR mag wouldn't be big enough to load heavier bullets, even if the barrel is twisted fast enough.

I could see a 4 pound .243 being a sweet backcountry rig. My Kimber .308 is 5.5 pounds empty and with optic, and I wouldn't want anything lighter in that chambering.

I just finished moding a Rossi Tuffy 410 to have a normal length stock, which makes it a 3.5 pound gun with a 33" OAL. My hope for it is the ultimate high country dusky grouse ground sluicer.

[Dave @ Oware]

The right ammo should make it good for large deer etc.
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/788183/nosler-defense-ammunition-223-remington-64-grain-bonded-solid-base-box-of-20

Check out these tests. Better results than some of the old standards in larger caliber.

http://www.noslerreloading.com/viewtopic.php?f=44&t=18868

[Tim Marshall]

Hey guys,

I've been thinking about this a lot and am starting my own ultralight AR build (sadly in.223). My budget is a far cry from the OIP $2800 David started this post with but I think sub 5# is possible on my budget and low 4# once I do some upgrades down the road.

My question is this…

In .223 the AR platform is marginal at best for deer sized game and not viable on larger game, however the same platform can be built in 6.5mm Grendel. How do you feel the grendel would do on deer sized and larger game? It seems like you can build a rifle that gets close to the weight of a $4000 ultralight bolt action for under $2000 and build it yourself. I'm very much a DIY guy and the idea of building my own rifle was burning in me to the point i just couldnt resist. The .223 wil be a learning experience but if it goes well I'm very interested in building a 6.5 grendel upper. Thoughts?

Here is all you would every want to know about the rifle Dave posted
http://www.bentwoodgunsmithing.com/#!oip/c163i

-Tim

[David Chenault]

Tim, I know a number of folks who have gotten into using ARs for whitetail and hog hunting, mainly with the 6.5 Grendel and .50 Beowulf after determining that .223 is so unforgiving w/r/t shot placement (esp with hogs).

The Grendel seems to be the more balanced cartridge as far as energy downrange and trajectory are concerned. Mag length limits the bullets you can use, but the sub 130 grain options are so good it doesn't really matter. You can get factory ammo loaded with 123 grain Scenars, for pete's sake! More than enough for the biggest mule deer, and probably quite adequate for elk with more conservative shot choice.

[Ian]

Why not go with .308 AR10 build?

Edit to add: I'll admit the weight would be concerning but the ones I've had my hands on, the owners went crazy with the furniture and made them heavier than I would have. Not sure how light you can go but the bottom half would be the same obviously.

[Tim Marshall]

Much harder to find UL parts for the AR10. A custom bolt gun could be much lighter. Prices for AR10 parts are higher too, I'm cheap;)

I prefer the bolt action but with the AR15 in Grendel the weight savings is significant with dedicated UL parts and it's just so much cheaper than the custom bolt gun. The Rambling rifle Gen2 was like $6500.

-Tim

[Ian]

Yeah I'm having difficulty finding much under 8lbs too. I thought (incorrectly) that there were polymer AR10 lowers out there; nope. Glad I had no intention of ever building one.

[Tim Marshall]

There probably are polymer ar10 lowers. I can crunch some numbers if you want.

-Tim

[Ian]

Nah only do it for yourself if you're interested in going that route. I'm more interested in an M1A or Sako bolt action in that caliber for hunting/target shooting; neither one a UL option, least of all the M1A.

I know more people who've built or bought an AR15 vs an AR10. I always assumed the options would be similar to an AR15 with a modest weight and cost penalty. I now see that's not necessarily the case.

[Tim Marshall]

http://www.tnarmsco.com/black-friday-sale-ar-308-presale-available-first-quarter-2015/

There will soon be one for AR10, not sure how it could be lighter than their Ar15 lower but so they say.

-Tim

[Dave P]

Kimber 84M Mountain Ascent is probably the lightest mass-produced bolt-action rifle designed for big-game animals there is at the moment. Going even lighter would require customization or approaching a gun-smith.

http://www.kimberamerica.com/rifles/model-84m/mountain-ascent-1

It's pretty pricey though.

The only ones that I have seen that isn't handcrafted, but weigh less than the Kimber, are semi-autos. And unless they're Russian-made, semis are not too popular around here for late-season hunts where sometimes it drops down to -30 to -40. And even then, most of those lightweight hunting semi-autos are pretty much limited to coyote-hunters more than any other niches just because of the availability of the calibre.

It's unfortunate Kifaru Arms don't produce Rambling Rifles anymore. I can understand why, given the price-point and the number of competitors out there who offer similar rifles for similar price.

Still day-dreaming about owning one from Rocky Mountain Rifles or Rifles Inc. Or Haenel…

[Dave P]

6.5 Grendel is interesting. Not sure how they compare to .303 Enfield or 6.5×55 Swede which are still in use in Scandinavia and Canada as moose calibres; and are often considered to be the "bare minimum".

But the Grendel definitely a good way to maximize the potential of a sub-5 lbs semi, though. Would love to see what it does to a coyote.

But after looking around, seems like some are saying the Grendel is comparable to a .30-30 in term of impact; and I know a lot of the old-timers around here try to limit themselves around 50 to 100 yards with that calibre.

Seeing the 1894 Winchester is a sufficient eastern brush rifle, an AR10 or AR15 in 6.5 would be an interesting prospect for white-tailed deer.

[Tim Marshall]

I believe the Grendel is very similar to the Swede.

-Tim

[Dave P]

Would be more similar to 6.5 Arisaka in performance.

The 6.5 Swede can be pushed to 160 gr at 3000 fps if purchased from a European supplier like Norma or Nosler. Not sure why Americans do 120 gr at 2600 fps. Must be all the old Mausers people still use.

Have you considered .260 Remington?

[Tim Marshall]

260 would make a great mountain rifle, but won't fit into the ar15 platform, gotta move to the AR10, heavier more cost. You can of course go the bolt rifle way but the same weight will cost a lot more. Even the Kimber mountain ascent at 4#13oz and $1800 costs more than an ultralight built on the Grendel that should be closer to the bottom of 4# so to me the lightest option is the grendel, only option, no way. The Kimber MA is of course a good option and the lightest production rifle available, but I'm not interested in stock, factory or production:) Custom bolt rifles can be build at the bottom of 4 pounds and I've done a lot of math and I'm very confident you can build a 260 (or any 308 based short action) bolt rifle at 4.25# or a bit lighter, and I believe the Grendel AR15 will be similar in weight. However that bolt rifle will cost a bare minimum of $3500-$4000 where the AR15 Grendel should be under $2000. Again not the only option but I gave up my dream of the custom bolt because I could build the Grendel myself and save a lot of cash. But I'm building on 223 first because i'm a little slow and down't want to screw up the 6.5mm barrel that costs 3 times as much:) plus my wife gave me a tiny budget to start with:)

-Tim

[Tim Marshall]

Some velocities listed on some ammo boxes

6.5 grendel- 123g grain 2620fps
6.5 Swede- 120 grain 2723fps
260 Rem- 125 grain 2950fps
6.5 credemore- 120 grain 3020fps

So i certainly won't argue the 6.5 grendel as the king of the 6.5mms but it's the only one that fits:), or 264LBC i guess but i'm no hand loader

-Tim

[Dave P]

Touche, my local friendly gunshop only sells Norma or Nosler. They don't really sell any other brands of 6.5 Swede which is weird because they sell a lot of other stuff from Hornady, Federal, Winchester, Remington et al in other calibres.

http://www.norma.cc/us/Products/Hunting/65×55-Swedish-Mauser/

http://www.nosler.com/65×55-swedish-mauser/

I don't think a lot of people have the old military rifles around here anymore seeing how they are all replaced by Tikkas and Sakos. But sometimes I forget United States is the land of hunters where they still use rifles from 130 years ago.

So, it could be like the .45-70 where Federal and other suppliers purposely sell under-performing ammunition because there are still a lot of old lever-actions still in use; even though most lever-actions produced today can handle really hot loads from Grizzly, Buffalo Bore and Garrett.

Anyway, if .260 Remington is only available for AR10 platforms, then, given the constraints, the Grendel would be your best option.

Performance is a non-issue because there's still lot of people who hunt CXP2-class game with .30-30 Win and 7.62x39mm Soviet. Hell, there's a lot of old-folks who still sit on tree-stumps and wait for moose to pass by and shoot them at point-blank with those calibres.

I am sure your AR15 would be a fantastic deer-rifle though. Would be awesome to see a sub-5 lbs CXP2 platform.

[Tim Marshall]

We'll see. I'm sure with the swede being around as long as it has there are many options for loads and the one I chose is only one possibility. There are obviously tons of caliber choices and each is its own balance of compromises. I'm curious about the Grendel and being there are factory loads available it's something I can try. Other calibers are options in this size but most other viable ones are hand load only and I'm just not ready for that.

-Tim

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