New tent from KUIU – Thoughts?

The specs are here:

http://store.kuiu.com/mountain-star-2p-p/12002.htm

Click on "SIZING" then "VIEW SPECIFICATIONS"

The most similar tent I can think of is the Big Sky Revolution 2P:
http://www.bigskyinternational.com/SummitShelters/Big_Sky_Revolution_2P_details.htm

I think it's about time. KUIU's path reminds me of the Dana Design of yore; well designed, well made. There is inherent value in such combinations; Dana Gleason and Jason Hairston understand this. Let's hope Jason remains in control…and offers the Ultra 3000 in a black/red colorway…

Looks like it would be fine for shorter guys but may be cramped for two larger people. I like the design and the weight is great for what looks to be a bomber shelter.

I'm not to sure as to their choice in fly fabric; PU coated nylon.

This is the OEM: http://www.camptec.com/

I assume that you mean you don't like the fact that the coating is PU instead of the generally preferred Silicone coating around here. My response to that would be that I think you would have one heck of a time finding any non-cottage tent maker using silnylon. People outside of BPL and other ultralight forums expect a tent to be fully waterproof the day it gets to their door. That means seam tape* and seam tape means PU. Add to that the fact that commercial tents seem to have a pretty good track record, or else those larger tent makers would have many more upset customers. I think that while maybe not perfectly ideal, PU coatings have proven that they are a viable option in tent design.

*Silicone seam sealing is simply not feasible at large scale. Look at what Franco has to do for Traptent. Each tent is set up in his back yard where he applies the liquid seam sealer and it is exposed to the elements until the sealant dries. How could you do that at a scale of thousands of tents per year?

"How could you do that at a scale of thousands of tents per year?"

C'mon,

The labour cost in Vietnam and/or a bunch of other SE and Central Asian locales for a person trained to seam-seal silnylon, plus the cost of space to deploy the operation could be easily justified.

Then there's Africa….

@Jesse,

I agree with most of what you've written.

I'd like to point out that the OP asked the forum what they think of it and not what they think others think of it.

>My response to that would be that I think you would have one heck of a time finding any non-cottage tent maker using silnylon.

Hilleberg, Macpac, Big Agnes and Terra Nova all make silnylon tents. Most require the user to seam seal it themselves.

Robert,
All fair points. I realize that the audience here is unique. I just don't want us to get into a group-think mindset where everyone at BPL avoids a certain kind of product because it is not in vogue at the moment, but might otherwise be perfectly serviceable.

I think it's interesting that 3 of 4 brands you mentioned are European. I think that's why they didn't come to mind as I wrote my post. Do Americans have different expectations from outdoor products? BTW, which tent from BA is Sil? I don't remember seeing any like that when browsing their site.

Ivo,
Can you imagine the acreage it would take for a major tent manufacturer to set up every tent they make indoors in order to seem seal it? Maybe they could use some type of elevator/conveyor system to raise the sealed-but-drying tents up off the floor to make way for the next one. sort of a ferris wheel but with tent platforms instead of seats. I think we should patent the process before anyone steals the idea!

Well, 2#10 is heavy for a tent and ultralight packing. 2 pounds is close to the maximum. 2 pounds for sleeping bag, 2 pounds for pack, 2 pounds for cook gear and fuel, 2 pounds for miscelaneous items. That's about ten pounds.

If you just want to go out light. It's OK. I object to the fairly circular design on purely theoretical grounds. A tent that does not match a person's overall shape will undoubtedly waste something…space, fabric, support, doorways, vents, …something.

The height is good. An example only: the complexity of the round shape sort-of dictates the pole arrangements. If the sides were made straight a single internal pole could be used. If you use a trekking pole, then you could double-duty this out of the weight. It would also remove some fabric. I would guess that it would be within an ounce of two pounds.

PU is heavier than Sil, but it is also more waterproof…a trade off. The siliconized nylon is OK for rain protection. It is not real good for contact protection and will bleed through dry sacks, for example. He really doesn't say whether it is nylon or not. I am guessing so from the weight.

First,there is a tape that sticks on silnylon and some brands use it.
Secondly, silnylon is not used by non-cottage, big brands in the US because of the CPAI-84 flame retardant standard applied in several states e.g. TNF uses PU-nylon for their expedition tents in the US and for those same models in the EU silnylon.

Hilleberg does not use silnylon. The nylon that they use is coated with silicon. Different process.

Please tell us where we can get tape that will stick to silnylon because I have been looking for some for about a decade.

Yes, Hilleberg does. Try to explain what process is used for silnylon then :-)

For where to get that tape, ask Roger. Perhaps he knows ?

Jesse,

Rereading the BA website, I was mistaken, BAs Ul series are silicone impregnated only on one side – just like MSR. I apologise.

>Do Americans have different expectations from outdoor products?

You'll be a better judge than me, I'm in Australia.

For what I see, it's only high end lightweight tents that are made with silnylon, Macpac (NZ company btw) only have their top models with silnylon and hilleberg and terra nova are also relatively top of the range.

Regarding seam sealing, Hilleberg seem to have worked out how to make waterproof silnylon seams without tape or seals.

>Hilleberg does not use silnylon. The nylon that they use is coated with silicon.

Sorry, they coat it with a total of three layers of 100% silicone. This process, while virtually identical to the process of making silnylon, produces a product "far, far stronger than so-called “siliconized” materials" (from the Hilleberg website).

To me that's all just marketing spin, similar to the 100's of variations of ePTFE membranes. If it looks like a duck…

Silnylon has silicon impregnated into the fabric during the manufacturing process. What Hilleberg does is coat regular ripstop nylon three times.

They are not the same product. Sorry.

> Hilleberg, Macpac, Big Agnes and Terra Nova all make silnylon
> tents. Most require the user to seam seal it themselves.

Robert, Hilleberg tents are constructed of silnylon, but which Macpac, Big Agnes and Terra Nova are made of (non-pu) silnylon and require seam sealing?

> Hilleberg does not use silnylon.
> The nylon that they use is coated with silicon.

Dave, that one leaves me scratching my head.

Anyway, back to the tents, the lengths of tents are on the short side. I believe Big Sky started at that length for their tents, but have transitioned to a longer length.

The interior height is not generous, but it's a relatively common.

The ends of carbon fiber poles are easily damaged. I bought a new tent with Easton carbon fiber poles, and two of the pole sections were damaged. Easton will not send you a single replacement pole section. You must send the whole pole set back to Easton, and it might take them several weeks to assemble a new set for you.

I do like the tent. It seems like a very good first attempt, and the price is not outrageous.

> Silnylon has silicon impregnated into the fabric during the
> manufacturing process. What Hilleberg does is coat the fabric three times.

During the manufacturing process… in other words while it's being woven? Seems to me that that would gunk up the loom. haha

I'm not understanding Dave's Hilleberg's-silnylon-is-not-silnylon claim, but if someone can explain it clearly.

"Technically, the 'silnylon' fabric is 'double-coated'"
Not my words :-)

And the brand Vaude uses a lot of silnylon/sil coated nylon and is not regarded as a pure top brand.

BTW, the complete quote from Hilleberg is:
"our coated Kerlon fabrics are also far, far stronger than so-called “siliconized” materials, which typically employ a coating mixture of silicone and other compounds. "

Woubeir, no, I was not specifically commenting on your post, apart from the taping silnylon because I really want some of that tape.

Regarding Hilleberg, I am only commenting on what I have read, which would be consistent with Kerlon being measurably more waterproof than similar denier silnylon. The additional coating of silnylon makes the fabric stronger too over silnylon which is more affected by UV rays (although not nearly as bad as cuben).

Of course, this all could be marketing spin and Hilleberg uses Unobtanium.

Paul,

>which Macpac, Big Agnes and Terra Nova are made of (non-pu) silnylon and require seam >sealing?

Terra Nova:
Laser Photon/Competition and most of the other UL series
http://www.terra-nova.co.uk/tents-and-spares/all-tents/laser-photon-1-tent/

Macpac:
Olympus, Minaret, Citadel, Macrolight and Microlight

BA:
My error, see previous post in the same thread: http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=90366&nid=769746

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Woubeir,
The start of that paragraph also mentions that they also only use 100% silicone. Silicone is a non-technical term used to describe a large series of polymers of silicon and oxygen, irrespective of other functional groups. This is only very slightly less broad than "mixture of silicone and other compounds". Hardly a revolutionary design change.

Don't get me wrong, Hilleberg make an incredible material; they use ballistic nylon (nylon 6,6) and have really good quality control. In the end though it is a silicone coated nylon. It just like event/goretex/MemBrain; all are a just a ePTFE membane.

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I think it is a decent tent, well on par with other modern tents. It's not the lightest and it's not a tent I would be using myself, but I appreciate the design. It's not a tent I'd recommend for backcountry use here in Australia, until it's been out for a year or so and we see how it lasts (that's not tent-specific, but rather due to it being Kiui's first tent).

"Regarding Hilleberg, I am only commenting on what I have read, which would be consistent with Kerlon being measurably more waterproof than similar denier silnylon. The additional coating of silnylon makes the fabric stronger too over silnylon which is more affected by UV rays (although not nearly as bad as cuben)."
Well, a possible difference could be the chemical nature of the mixture or differences in the fabric (it is not because they have the same denier that they have the same properties) or both.

BTW, somewhere on the Hilleberg website they say themself that their fabrics are impregnated.
And Vaude uses only double sided silicone fabrics.

Dave,

You wanted to know about taping silnylon?

Read this comment from Roger Caffin:

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=26694&nid=224862

From this thread: http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=26694

Thanks for that! Made my day.

Possibly no more seam sealing? I like it.