Food calculations

Figure you will need 2 pounds of dry food a day. My trips are about 5-9 days long, at most, due to weight concerns. I hiked the John Muir trail in 27 days, but we hiked out and picked up a food package every 7 days. 7 days worth of food is thus 14 pounds, about all I want to carry.

However, we did meet a couple of women who were hiking the trail with no food. They were bumming food as they went along, and it seemed to be working.

A group of guys hiked across part of Idaho in the fall, when berries were ripe, and planned to gather berries and catch fish along the way. They also took 10 lbs of flour, each, so whatever berries they harvested, them made biscuits out of the flour and berries. They did catch a lot of fish, but they were famished when they finished, and only 2 out of their group of 5 finished. They didn't really live off the land, they lived off the flour.

The technology of migratory "primitive" peoples is not so trivial, and deserves a lot of respect. I would expect even the hardest of the "hard core" people of today would not be able to handle it. Even Bear Grylls is always just trying to get OUT of the wilderness, presumably to a nice cushy pub somewhere.

One way to do things is to have herd animals. Travel can be very slow, but the animals are able to turn stuff on the land you can't eat into food you can. Also note they are self-propelled – you wouldn't want to pack them. In fact the best kind you can get to carry your pack FOR you.

Another method is to forage as you go by killing the sedentary peoples you encounter along the way, and taking their food.

w/respect to lembas – the missing mallorn fruit must be the secret ingredient because that lembas recipe certainly would not keep you on you feet for a few days. Also I will note that finding olive oil anywhere north of Gondor would be highly unlikely, especially given the lack of external trade with Lothlorien. I highly suspect that lembas recipe is a complete forgery!

I've spent a lot of time backpacking around northern Greece.

IF you were allowed to hunt and were very skilled you could supplement your food with your kills.
You'd be hunting in unknown areas without the land owners permission, as you know this is also a well known path for illegal immigrants both into and out of the country
So gunfire would put you in a lot of trouble from both sides of the law.
Plus what are you going to do with your shotgun when you walk through towns?

There is trapping but to be effective at trapping you'd need a LOT of traps, massive amounts of trapping experience and even then a fair bit of luck.
The only animal i've seen in abundance is tortoise, i'd have to be pretty hungry to eat one.

Fruit, nuts and berries can be found in many areas or Northern Greece but what and how much depends on the season, likewise Horta.
Plus unless you are well experienced in what to eat and more importantly what not to heat you will likely quickly get into trouble.

I've never not been able to find a village or farm that wasn't happy to sell produce to us.
Biggest problem i've found in the warmer months is sourcing water.
If you're down in the valleys you can often find a small stream or lake, once you start to get above 1500m though it's extremely difficult in some areas.
I've carried in 6 litres of water before now for a 2 night trip, it was a good job as well as there was not a single drop within eye shot those 2 days.

Just read your other thread.

Seems very odd to me, on one hand you are saying you "know your country" on the other you are talking about using a wood burning stove in summer, in Greece.

If you live in he same country as me (Greece) then i don't see how anyone with the slightest bit of common sense would even consider the idea of a wood burning stove in mid to late summer in Greece.

Where ever i've hiked and camped in Greece everyone has been nothing but helpful and generous, biggest problem i've had when asking permission to camp on someone land is trying to gently turn down their offer to stay in their house.
We've even had land owners bring out food, milk and on a few occasion home made τσίπουρο.

If you start even the smallest wood fire in these areas during the summer months though you'll find a community united against you, and rightly so.

Yes,i know,actually i am planning for September,not mid summer.There is no use for fire,other than cook in summer.

Yeah,i am not planning to hunt with guns etc.Too noisy,too hard to obtain,expensive, need ammo etc,complicated legality…

I will depend on fruits and nuts mostly.

I know the are are small villages very often at north,might check up if really necessery.
I will probably spend most time in forest,farming areas,valleys,so water will be a bit easier to get.I might occasionally climb a bit higher.

2 things

Either you are not serious and this is some sort of bored attempt to rile a response out of people, OR you really have absolutely no idea and have never been to Greece.

If it's #1 then i think it's extremely sad that someone would take time out of peoples busy lives simply to relieve their boredom, especially as the people taking time out of their day are people that are trying to offer help for no gain on their part.

If it's #2 then either you have never been to Greece in September or you are a complete and utter fool.

To give you the benefit of doubt.

If i spotted anyone having a fire in any wilderness location in Greece from June till October i would do everything within my power to stop it.
We had our house burn to the ground as a result of blatant stupidity in September, several other families also lost their houses.

I have backpacked in Greece during the summer months and there is absolutely no way i would cook food with any device that has a bare flame, anyone that does is irresponsible, stupid and deserves everything the law can throw at them.

Secondly,
If you have ever been on Greece in September you will know there is absolutely nothing in the wilds except scorched earth, dried out plants and trees.
There are no edible fruits, berries or nuts to be found of any sort of quantity at this time of year.

As i say you'll be lucky if you find a water source outside a village never mind enough food to feed you.

My advice is to stay at home and to read through your Initial D comics again during the summer.

"
There are no edible fruits, berries or nuts to be found of any sort of quantity at this time of year."

I dont think so,some berries grow end of august/september.
Some fruits also exist,and some a bit later (october).
Do you think i should go later october-nov,or earlier for more food?

I want to avoid hiking in august,too much heat,bugs,sun,water problems etc…

As for fire,i agree.I am not talking about campfire here,small sticks stove fire,to heat up a cup at most.No reason to start big fire.

Bunta,
I don't think you're trolling, just incredibly naive. So here goes (again):

Unless you are on the Big Rock Candy Mountain (google it), getting significant calories from foraging wild foods AND hiking 20 mile days are not compatible. Not for you, not for anyone, and not at any time of year.

To cover 20 miles with the kind of starting pack weight you're talking about, you'll be lucky to hike less than 10 hours a day. Unless you're 'foraging' on cultivated land, there won't be enough hours left to gather meaningful calories (plus, you'll already be exhausted from hauling a 60-80# pack for 10 hours).

Here's another fantasy you need to let go of: 2500-3000 Cal/day WILL NOT sustain you for 25 days @ 20 miles/day. You might manage the first half of the trip (with a properly balanced diet) by 'supplementing' with your body's fat reserves. After that, you have three (maybe four) options: 1) Quit; 2) Slow WAY down, such that calories going out match calories going in; 3) Eat more (by resupplying or carrying more supplies from the get-go); 4) Somehow, thru sheer force of will, push yourself to the same mileage with the same meager rations, and risk permanent damage as you 'eat' into muscle tissue and organ fat.

That isn't speculation; it is (as nearly as I recall) the premise and tested experience of the Arctic 1000 (I believe they chose option 3). As I said before, what you are proposing isn't much less difficult than that, and that was a trip by three world-class wilderness athletes in an area with abundant supplies of water and fuel.

Finally (again), it will help tremendously if you are more forthcoming about WHY it is so important for you to attempt this without resupply.

Sounds to me like you are an illegal immigrant trying to plan a method of hiking out of Greece rather than planning a backpacking trip.

"I dont think so,some berries grow end of august/september.
Some fruits also exist,and some a bit later (october)."

The pattern continues.

Once again, someone with specific expertise and infinitely more experience than the neophyte wannabe is told he is wrong.

For trip budgeting purposes, what would really be useful is to investigate who pays for the costs of SAR in Greece, and how to reliably contact authorities when it is needed, and how long it takes to initiate a rescue. Since the questioner is also clueless regarding maps, perhaps a PLB is the best option. Saves the taxpayers a lot of money if the remains can be located quickly.

Although it's probably going to end up being nothing more than a 3-day sufferfest.

Wilderness and hubris are the ingredients for a very bitter cocktail.

"For trip budgeting purposes, what would really be useful is to investigate who pays for the costs of SAR in Greece, and how to reliably contact authorities when it is needed, and how long it takes to initiate a rescue. Since the questioner is also clueless regarding maps, perhaps a PLB is the best option. Saves the taxpayers a lot of money if the remains can be located quickly."

Nobody.No SAR,PLB and the lot,and i am not contacting authorities.
Happy now?
Lets move on.

"Here's another fantasy you need to let go of: 2500-3000 Cal/day WILL NOT sustain you for 25 days @ 20 miles/day. You might manage the first half of the trip (with a properly balanced diet) by 'supplementing' with your body's fat reserves. After that, you have three (maybe four) options: 1) Quit; 2) Slow WAY down, such that calories going out match calories going in; 3) Eat more (by resupplying or carrying more supplies from the get-go); 4) Somehow, thru sheer force of will, push yourself to the same mileage with the same meager rations, and risk permanent damage as you 'eat' into muscle tissue and organ fat."

I need some accurate calculations sure.
What is the best way to count how many calories i will burn,if i put on 25kg pack for example ,and walk for 8 hours?Measuring body weight before and after the walk will make a consistent calculation?

Anyways,thx for your posts.

"Sounds to me like you are an illegal immigrant trying to plan a method of hiking out of Greece rather than planning a backpacking trip."

An illegal immigrant with a home and PC,who writes in backpacking light(!) forums of all the places?
Haha,ok good one.I had a laugh.

Btw,can you write a pm address in your profile,i want to ask you stuff.

If you are contemplating a long term activity out of your normal range, no formula is going to tell you how your body is going to react and perform. Get some experience and some data points. Body weight is a lousy measure for determining caloric needs. The human body is 50-65% water. Therefore, hydration levels alone can cause massive swings in body weight with or without eating. Body fat and muscle mass can also change over time (up or down) depending on the extent of the activity and the source of the calories. Go outside, move around a while and see what happens.

@Brian Okay.I will start adding weight gradually to my older pack,and go for fast dayhikes,get some baseline.
Currently,i am strengthening my shoulders and back ,and i estimate i need 5-6 more kg bodyweight before i leave.
I have access to people on physical science department,i can get some performance,body fat evaluations etc.

"Where ever i've hiked and camped in Greece everyone has been nothing but helpful and generous, biggest problem i've had when asking permission to camp on someone land is trying to gently turn down their offer to stay in their house."

@Mark S, This! It is the polite disengagement that is the hardest. Complete strangers will often treat you like family, and family will likely consider it their duty to feed you until you explode, and then (in my case this happened more than once) try to marry you off to someone. After all if you are wandering around you obviously need a wife to keep you in line! :-)

This is more or less the "style" of "backpacking" I was suggesting in the other thread might be the best in Greece. With respect, permissions, and friendly interactions someone could do such a trip without reference to food weight and calories. You could still spend a huge amount of time going cross country, sleeping outdoors, and so on, but if you plan to be self-sufficient only for a few days (and actually learn to do that first) you could basically cross Greece from one end to the other. Forget about nuts, berrys, and special food, and just eat what you can buy every several days to a week locally. Since you will not have to carry an ungodly amount of weight for no reason, you can just eat fresh food you buy locally. It goes without saying that you should not raid anyone's orchard along the way, and talking about foraging wild foods along the way in the abstract is a complete non-starter. Even it it were possible (I don;t think so) such a trip would become almost entirely about searching for food.

But in most of the country, as Mark pointed out, you are at the very least going to have to connect the dots between water sources. In many cases these will already have villages built on them – probably for the last 5000 years or so. I also like that you need minimal gear and planning this way. When ever you stop in a village, ask if there is a road-less route where you are going, and that will probably get you over the next chunk of territory even without detailed pre-planning with maps and spreadsheets. Sounds like heaven to me. Also the alternative does seemed "doomed", as the OP said, and not just because of the weight of the food.

Of course all this depends on having the locals not run you out of town chasing you with pitchforks because you did something unacceptable.

Hiking and backpacking is pretty rare in Greece still, so we tend to be a bit of a novelty when we walk through a village in many areas of Greece.

Personally i enjoy the solitude of backpacking so i try and stay high and away from villages, it's extremely difficult to carry enough food for longer trips though.
So villages are an inevitability.

Problem when you start resupplying in smaller villages though is getting high caloric food that's also light weight.
All but the smallest villages have supermarkets these days, so you can stock up on Pita breads, hard cheese's, salami, rice, pasta, condensed milk (Noy noy)
If you can get eggs from a farm then they'll easily last 1 week.

Another option is to use shelters of the various hiking clubs of Greece, if you send them a email then they will usually give you an address for you to mail food to, it'll then usually be waiting for you at the shelter.

With a bit of forethought and planning food isn't a problem, it does necessitate meeting other people though.

As i say by far the biggest problem in Aug and Sept is water.
If your higher than say 1000m there are very very few water sources at that time of year, even larger rivers down in the lower parts are bone dry.

We did a hike around Kalavrita a few weeks back and the water was flowing that hard a fast i literally couldn't hear my friend talking to me even though he was stood right next to me.

We were in the same spot in August last year with my Mrs and that same river was bone dry.

Even well known water sources like Drakolimni are reduced to nothing more than puddles in summer.

Being English water sources have never been a worry for me, i've been caught out a few times here in Greece though by what i thought were certain water sources only to find them bone dry in the summer months.