linelocs vs prusik loops

Linelock3's will slip at moderate tension with any guylines less than 3mm in diameter. Prusiks work fine as a substitute but you may have to experiment with different styles of cord and number of wraps to prevent slippage or an impossibly tight grip. Or try Skurka's system: http://andrewskurka.com/2012/tarp-guyline-system/

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=68352

http://photos.airpost.net/lines.htm

I've used 2.2mm Zing-it with Lineloc3 without slippage but it's hard to pull the line tight one handed. Same for small prussiks, especially in the cold. I'm now using 1.75mm Zing-it (probably thicker than your mason line) with triangular style micro line loc's. Much easier to adjust one handed, no slippage, and you don't have to take off your gloves.

Figured I would give an update due to the very helpful replies.

I tried the prusik loop method without cutting the linelocs off yet. With 4 wraps on the knot they gave good hold. Better than the linelocs but still not perfect. I think part of my problem is mason line is probably fairly "slippery" as far as lines go.

While i think 5 loops is going to be way too hard to adjust I guess I'll try it anyway.

I believe I'll end up grabbing a "rough" and light 2 – 2.5 mm line and trying the line locs one more time. If that doesn't work I'm going to make prusiks from the 2.5 mm line and find a thinner line for the guy out that will hopefully strike the balance between hold and sliding when adjusted.

Maybe I'm missing it, but I don't see what kind of tarp. For example's sake, the linelocks on my Duomid are only made for 3mm cord. I know people use thinner stuff, but mason line is a bit too thin… and slippery…

I bought some nice fluorescent yellow mason line to have for a little clothesline type of rig, so I wouldn't throttle myself on it anymore (don't ask)… Anyway, I gave up on it because it was just too slippery to hold a knot well enough. Now I don't bother with it at all. Others have better luck, probably depends on the brand I suppose.

.

Personally, I like the LineLocs. As Rob Bell over at MLD has argued, they're about as simple and reliable a system as is available, provided you use the proper cord with them.

He sends out a non-dyneema guyline with his shelters, like the Duomid, which is thicker than most dyneema lines used by the UL crowd and not quite as light. It's also not as strong, but well within the necessary strength for any of the requirements of a shelter. The advantage is in the convenience. Yet, on a shelter like my Duomid, I'm sure there is a penalty of something like one-and-a-half to two ounces. I'm of the opinion that it's worth it, as the linelocs make shelter set-up significantly faster and more reliable (and adjustable, given the terrain).

Not everyone is, but that is more or less the cost/benefit.

EDIT TO ADD: On my tarp, I've also had good luck with Lawson's Dyneema Ironwire in LineLocs. It's not a true 3mm line, but its sheathe causes it to flatten under tension, which holds really well in the LineLocs.

I guess I didn't mention it was a SpinnTwinn. The linelocs look like what I've seen referred to as "lineloc 3's" on here before (they have a U shape in the cavity that holds the top line).

I might have to just bite the bullet and try some of that ironwire. I don't need the linelocs to hold in 50 mph winds with no half hitch, but I don't want to HAVE to tie 8 half hitches then adjust the stakes again every time I set the tarp up. To me that defeats the purpose of having them.

If worse comes to worst I can just whip up some whoopie slings out of that ironwire…

As you said, I think the problem with the prusiks is the size and texture of the mason's line. I tried them also (I tried both 3 and 2 wrap prusiks) and they do work, but it wasn't quite what I wanted, and I prefer a knot to a line lock for this application. I ended up going with the adjustable grip hitch. Its easy to tie and it seems to grip small line like the masons line better than either the prusiks or the taut line hitch. You might try it if you haven't already.

I often camp in high winds. You don't have to set a 'ridgeline' (here's how to go without)https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ak-eE3dAHq8. Prussic knots are good to impress your friends but a quick release truckers hitch is faster and holds better. I keep cord locks on my tarp but usually the truckers hitch is faster than moving the lineloc into place and messing it. I took my time in that video but I can set up my 6×9 shelter in under 1 minute(high wind configuration takes longer).

are you guys using actual prusik loops in same sized cord

or using another friction hitch and just calling it prusik?

prusik cords are known to be poor grippers on same sized cord in the climbing world

try the blakes hitch if this is the case

;)

Well the advantage I like of the prusik knot (and the linelocs, if they work) is I don't have to tie any knots to set up camp. I just stake the lines and then tighten them. Easier to do in gloves and higher winds plus much faster. I could also tie a permanent trucker's hitch and see how that works out.

Eric I agree using the mason line for both the prusik and guyline is giving me problems. I think I will have to look into using ironwire for the guylines and something a little thicker for the prusik. I just looked into the blake hitch and might tie a few of those in the meantime while I wait.

I recently received my Zpacks Hexamid Duplex and am also experimenting with different hitch knots using the 1.2 Zline cord supplied by Zpacks. I don't know what it is equivalent to with regard to other brands, but it appears to be some sort of aramid fiber core with a grippy nylon sheath. The cord itself is pretty stiff.

The tautline hitch worked pretty well but would slip a little when pulled very hard. If the knot was cinched down hard enough to prevent any slippage, it was also very difficult to slide it up the cord to take up slack as well. So it doesn't seem to be ideal, at least not for this cord.

The trucker's hitch works fine, but it is also not ideal because once set it is a bit of a hassle to readjust slack if desired, and is not quite as precise when adjusting tension.

The winner so far for me is the blake hitch. Although I haven't had a chance yet to field test it, at least in the comfort of my den it has all the right characteristics needed for a hitch type knot in this application. It slides easily up the cord and has zero slip down the cord. I don't think it will be prone to "walking" its way down the cord with the kind of slack/taut oscillations caused by wind.

Bob

http://www.treeservicesmagazine.com/article-6706.aspx

I use Micro Line Loc Guy Line Adjusters for our GoLite tent my son uses in scouts. Its easy and works well.

LineLoc 3 Line Adjusters require much thicker line to hold.

I have been using a Tautline hitch for my tarp lines. I use Z-Packs 1.5mm Zline. Holds the knot well, and releases when needed.

I use a Prusik hitch on my safety line while in my tree stand. This one needs to work if bad things happen there.

The Prusik knots all can be adjusted by changing the number of loops you use to hold the rope.

Blake's hitch looks interesting .. I'll have to experiment on that one.

the blakes hitch was invented 30+ years ago by Heinz Prohaska for mountaineering and caving applications

its remained a relatively obscure hitch until popularized by Jason Blake in the 90s for tree climbing

the blake hitch as the following advantages

– it grips VERY well on same sized cord

– it is a terminator friction knot … ie you can simply tie it on the end of the line without any loop back

-it releases and slides up the line fairly easily when unweighted

so why is it not used more in climbing applications ???

it has the following issues

– it is hard to remember to tie properly without alot of practice … "hard" compared to climbing knots such as the kleimheist, prusik, autoblock where you could show a person once or twice and theyll remember for years … the blakes hitch requires you to practice it to be able to tie it properly where it counts … when youre cold tired hungry wet on the side of a windy mountain wall in the dark

– it is fairly hard to inspect compared to other climbing friction knots

– if you tie it slightly wrong it becomes the suislide knot … as you can guess this is a very bad thing where your life is on the line

the WRONG way to tie a blakes … this is the suislide

the RIGHT way to tie a blakes …

for hikers who are under less severe conditions and with less consequences of a mistied knot … the blakes hitch i think will work fine

;)

I have a spinn twinn and also sdded linelocs on the ridge line. I use 3 mm for the ridge line tie outs, and Lawson's line for the rest. Not the lightest, but the easiest.

What makes a good hitch attractive is that it can be used in many situations with different kinds of rope or cord with no specialized hardware bits. And it's fewer grams, of course, for those counting grams.

Hummm… lets see… the door on the Left, or the door on the Right?

Oh, wait… is that knot tied correctly?

I'm a LineLock guy, but if I have to tie things off a taught-line is fast and simple. And if you leave the tail in, it comes apart fast as well.

The blakes hitch is no more difficult to tie than a tautline which itself has several different variations

Years ago arborists used tautlines, but this has been superseeded by the blakes and other hitches which grip better on modern ropes

You can see its the differences here

For rock climbing application almost no one uses the tautline as it doest grip as well under critical applications on modern ropes and lines … Which is why at least one user above reported slippage

And a prussik/kleimheist is MUCH easier to tie using a looped cord or sling, which is what most climbers carry

You can read about the pros and cons of various hitches here

http://www.treeservicesmagazine.com/print-2460.aspx

And here is an article about using the blakes instead of the tautline for guylines

The taut-line is a friction hitch knot traditionally taught in scouts. A common use is to tie tent guy lines for the purpose of adding tension. The benefit is that the tent is held tight and secure. Unfortunately, this knot easily loosens and fails. I've climbed on this knot; I know. I've spoken to scouts who took turns through a stormy night re-securing their taut-line hitches.

The Blakes hitch provides the same functionality, yet it incredibly more stable than the taut-line. The coil construction of the Blakes provides this improvement. For the simple fact that the Blakes hitch has more coil, that's enough merit to prefer it. Coils add friction and friction yields stability.

http://jimknowsknots.blogspot.ca/2011/11/use-blakes-hitch-instead-of-taut-line.html?m=1

A good hitch is one that works for YOU … Not someone else

I find it interesting that some folks here are willing to try something that may work better

While others deny any benefits without trying it first

;)

Eric, consider me a convert! :)

Thanks for mentioning it. I used to do some alpine stuff/roped climbing but never saw this hitch before. Did an 8-day course with AAI early on for roped climbing and crevasse rescue, and it was not introduced.

I like to make it simple and foolproof in my head, hence a mnemonic ditty to help: "One, two, three, four, over, under, out the middle"

So I've got a newest, favorite-est hitch, lol!

I also just tried the Blake hitch as well and it is great. Absolutely no slip even with cheap and slippery braided mason line. I will be converting my tarp ASAP. Thanks for turning me on to it eric.

Also for people who say having to tie knots makes them inferior to linelocs… how is tying a set of knots one time at your house a big deal? Why anyone would tie them in the field is beyond me. I feel knots are much more durable than the .1 in plastic bar on a lineloc, so if anything it is more important to know knots when relying on linelocs in rough conditions. Just my .02.

On another thread (Staking Out Copper Spur UL2), Eric Chan gave the following good description of how to use a Blake’s Hitch (could also use the “Adjustable Grip” Or “Adjustable Loop” hitch) to attach a tie-out line to a tent of tarp corner, so that the length of adjustment is close to the full length of the tie-out cord. Other methods I’ve seen and read about, usually used for guy lines instead of ground-level tie-outs, only allow length adjustment between half length and full length of the line by forming an adjustable loop at one end of the cord.

Does anyone have experience with using an adjustable hitch (such as Blake’s or a Prussik) to tie just a complete loop through the ground-level tie-out webbing on a tarp or tent, as shown below? It would take two hands to adjust – one to hold the gripping knot and one to pull the loose end of the cord through it. I tried it in my house and it seems to still lock well when the loop is tensioned, and doesn’t slip. It would allow a wider range of length adjustment than having the loop just in the end of the tie-out cord. I’m wondering how difficult it would be to tighten once the tent or tarp is set up, though.

(I got the idea while trying to replace the short, non-adjustable tie-out loops on my Big Agnes Tiger Wall UL2, which came woefully inadequate stock).