Advice for a hardshell for early spring and late fall.

[Derek M.]

I've gotta agree with Dale on this one.

Also, I find the statement "[it] doesn't really hurt pack weight either, since it's a 'worn' item" absolutely hilarious.

Not trying to pick on Brian (or anyone, for that matter), but I am just constantly amused by the mental gymnastics many of us do to wish weight away.

[Eric Blumensaadt]

I agree with Dale on "softshells". Mine is COLD compared to even 200 wt. pile under a windshell or eVent parka.

For the weight I don't think a "softshell" is at all worth carrying. Good synthetic fiber insulated jackets (Climashield, for ex.) coupled with a windshell or GOOD WPB parka are very warm for the weight.

[Erik Usis]

Love my Westcomb Focus LT Hoody. Winter camped to 20F with it several times, down shirt underneath, felt fine. Made in North America. A bit pricey, though you can sometimes find it for $200 on sale, and you don't have to buy a soft shell. Minimalist, no pockets.

[Stephen M]

I used a Mountain Hardwear Quasar (event) pullover last autumn and really liked it.

[Mike M]

my Helium spends 95% of the time in my pack, but those 5% of the times I need it- it does the job; it's a no frills hardshell that works, the Helium HD might be worth looking into as well

[Brian Lindahl]

> Also, I find the statement "[it] doesn't really hurt
> pack weight either, since it's a 'worn' item" absolutely
> hilarious.

In my experience, having the weight of something distributed over your entire body is a HUGE difference from having that weight in your pack.

> I don't think much of the insulating power of the soft
> shells I have tried. You get a thick slab of smith faced
> polyester that protects from abrasion, wind and light
> precip, but when it's cold and the shell is in contact
> with your base layer, it is cold. I really do find a
> 100w fleece and a windshirt to be warmer and have better
> moisture transport, plus the ability to wear them in
> combination and with my rain shell and even for sleep.

Hmm, I've never been too cold in just a baselayer and a thin softshell when working hard, even in temperatures around 0 degrees F. I do use a variety of baselayer weights, though, including powerstretch in sub-zero temperatures. When are you actually wearing both your 100w fleece and windshirt during activity?

> There are windshirts available with air permeability
> near hard shells to those equal to the air permeability
> of typical summer shirts. Soft-shells also fall in this
> exact same air permeability range.

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/alpine-start-review-chenault.html

According to the above review, both are heavier stretch-woven garments. In my opinion, this puts them in the softshell category. Rab also even calls the Boreas a softshell. They're certainly VERY lightweight softshells, and perhaps more accurately described as a windshirt-softshell crossover? They're quite heavy if you were to consider them as a 'windshirt', at least compared to the rest of the windshirt market. They're about twice the weight, if not more. They also take up much more space in your pack.

[Richard Nisley]

Brian,

I find it more constructive to just ignore all of the marketing hype's slicing and dicing names. In reality a shell is either a rain-proof type or a non-rain-proof type. In those two categories select the characteristics that are important to you. See
Here

[Derek M.]

"In my experience, having the weight of something distributed over your entire body is a HUGE difference from having that weight in your pack."

Brian,
This is a perceptual illusion. Lift a quart of water in one hand and a 2 lb. down sleeping bag with the other and tell me which one feels heavier. For most people, it's a no-brainer: the water seems heavier, even though the muscles in both arms are working just as hard to lift each item.

It goes without saying that having an item on your person versus having it in your pack does not change its physical mass, even though it might seem like it does. At the end of the day, you are basically burning the same amount of calories. That was my point.

Apologies for the thread drift.

[Brian Lindahl]

It's not a perceptual illusion when it's throwing off your center of balance and your back and shoulders start getting sore. It's not all about burned calories. ;)

[Dale Wambaugh]

1) your heart and muscles can't tell the difference

2) you need to load your gear properly or get a better pack

Weigh is weigh and it takes the same calories to move it a meter up hill regardless if it is on your pack or worn.

You can pile the manure any way you like, but a soft shell is inefficient in terms of weight, performance and versatility.

It won't keep you dry, it won't keep you warm and weighs as much as 3 useful layers. Great for climbers, skiers, or posing at the bus stop, but not in an UL kit.

[Brian Lindahl]

Like I said… it's not all about the calories. And yes, my muscles can certainly tell the difference between weight on my shoulders and weight distributed across my body. I'm much more comfortable when it's distributed across my body. It has nothing to do with loading gear properly or getting a better pack. It has everything to do with the fact that the weight is being supported by shoulder straps and a hipbelt versus being supported by every inch of your skeletal and muscular system. There's no changing that fact. Perhaps some of us are more sensitive to it than others?

Dale, can you answer the following?:
I've never been too cold in just a baselayer and a thin softshell when working hard, even in temperatures around 0 degrees F. I do use a variety of baselayer weights, though, including powerstretch in sub-zero temperatures. When are you actually wearing both your 100w fleece and windshirt during activity?

[Cameron Habib]

Seems like a lot of good advice and info in here; your choice is probably going to come down to your specific needs and desires.

Personally, I'm a fan of GoreTex, and specifically Arcteryx GoreTex jackets. Keep in mind that even though it may be snow, once it hits your jacket, even with the best insulation, it'll eventually melt and turn to water, and you don't want to get wet in those temperatures. I have an Arcteryx Alpha SV I picked up a few months ago and couldn't recommend it more. I do a fair bit of rock climbing (what this jacket was intended for), and it's consistently blown everything else out of the water (no pin intended). It's not great for around town (no hand warmer pockets), it's fairly heavy, pricey, and fairly stiff / noisy, but short of taking a saw to it (which isn't even valid since I've seen it hold up to plenty of ice axes), it'll last you a lifetime. They make a bunch of other models (Alpha is climbing oriented, Beta is an all around, FL is the lighter weight version of the SV) that have different purposes and may be worth a look at.

[Dale Wambaugh]

Brian asked, "Dale, can you answer the following?:
I've never been too cold in just a baselayer and a thin softshell when working hard, even in temperatures around 0 degrees F. I do use a variety of baselayer weights, though, including powerstretch in sub-zero temperatures. When are you actually wearing both your 100w fleece and windshirt during activity?"

I would normally wear a base layer appropriate to the basic temperature and would add or subtract the windshirt as needed. It would indeed be cold if I needed a 100W fleece with high exertion, but it would be a great combo for lighter levels of activity.

My point was that the two garments are lighter than a typical softshell while giving higher performance and greater versatility.

Once you stop moving the softshell is a cold boat anchor. Overcome the DWR and it will take a long time to dry. So there you are, wet, no loft, and you need yet more layers to make up for the deficiencies of the softshell. They don't work for me.

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