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Argon silnylon


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  • #1315198
    Thomas Conly
    BPL Member

    @conly

    Locale: Lots of canoeing and snow

    Dutch has added a new fabric to the DIY section of his website: Argon silnylon! Finished weight after coating of 1.06 ounces per sq yard, 1650mm waterproofness and amazingly, $5.75 per yard! This sounds like a dream come true. There are some questions and answers back and forth on the hammock forums.

    http://dutchwaregear.com/argon-sil-nylon.html

    #2089026
    J-L
    BPL Member

    @johnnyh88

    Wow that fabric sounds great. I wonder if it stretches more than regular silnylon when wet? The material should pack down really small.

    #2089105
    Sam Farrington
    BPL Member

    @scfhome

    Locale: Chocorua NH, USA

    Thank you. Will check it out. They have samples for $1 + mailing.

    #2089114
    Bob Gross
    BPL Member

    @b-g-2-2

    Locale: Silicon Valley

    That sounds like the same stuff that I purchased there a few months ago. It is really thin stuff.

    –B.G.–

    #2089121
    Mole J
    BPL Member

    @mole

    Locale: UK

    looks interesting

    There is a conflict between his metric and imperial figures. I guess the 1.06 oz is the correct one?

    Site states 1.06oz/yd. and also 48g.

    1.06oz/yd = 29.7g/yd or 35.5g/m

    48g/m = 40g/yd or 1.4oz/yd

    #2089174
    Jerry Adams
    BPL Member

    @retiredjerry

    Locale: Oregon and Washington

    "It is really thin stuff."

    As would be expected for the weight : )

    If you made a tent, would it survive or get ripped to shreds?

    Can you sew it without destroying it? With other 0.7 oz nylons like Nobul, it is so thin I worried about that, yet I've used a sleeping bag on quite a few nights and it's held up fine.

    What about the floor of a tent or bivy, would it hold up? seems like that has different stresses than a tent

    You can't answer definitively, but maybe you have an impression

    #2089182
    David Drake
    BPL Member

    @daviddrake

    Locale: North Idaho

    Very interesting. Ordered some of the red. Seems like even if it's too thin for a shelter, it might work well for a poncho or bivy bottom, or even VBL clothing.

    #2089193
    Colin Krusor
    BPL Member

    @ckrusor

    Locale: Northwest US

    I share JMole's curiosity about the weight. David, when you receive yours, would you mind weighing it for us?

    #2089233
    Bob Gross
    BPL Member

    @b-g-2-2

    Locale: Silicon Valley

    "If you made a tent, would it survive or get ripped to shreds?"

    I checked again. What I purchased a few months ago was Argon not waterproof. What they have now is Argon waterproof sil-nylon (heavier).

    The stuff that I had purchased made a nice down blanket.

    –B.G.–

    #2089243
    David Drake
    BPL Member

    @daviddrake

    Locale: North Idaho

    No problem, Colin. Dutchware emphasizes that this 1.06 oz *finished weight*, and contrasts it with 1.4 oz finished weight of the more common silnylon. Guess we'll see.

    Doesn't Golite use a lighter silnylon (15D) for their poncho tarp?

    #2089390
    Jonathan Chin
    BPL Member

    @jonrc

    Locale: Northwoods

    Can anyone comment on quality (especially waterproofness/hydrostatic head) yet?

    I was just about to splurge on 9m of 1.0oz cuben at ~5x that price, but this new argon silnylon may instead make it into my MYOG bivy and net tent.

    #2089391
    Matthew Perry
    BPL Member

    @bigfoot2

    Locale: Hammock-NOT Tarptent!

    From Dutch's HF post:

    "I am very proud to present my newest fabric to the ARGON product line. ARGON sil nylon is a high quality rip-stop developed specifically for us with the DIYer tarp maker in mind. Most Sil nylons advertise they are 1.1 but in reality they are 1.1 to start and then have a finished weight of 1.4 ounces per square yard. ARGON Shield has a finished weight of 1.06 ounces per square yard. Also many sil nylons boast a hydrostatic head pressure of 1100mm or less. We had ARGON independently tested in a certified lab with a result of 1650 average head pressure. What's more we are continuing with the same rich ARGON colors. We Currently have Black, Brown, Red, and Woodland Camo. These colors match the other ARGON line up so you can have a matching DIY set up. Lastly I bought a lot and I was able to get a good price on it. I am passing that on to you and I am introducing it at $5.75 for Black, Brown, and Red, $7.50 for Woodland Camo. Now let's make some great tarps.

    http://dutchwaregear.com/argon-sil-nylon.html"

    So, there's the hydrostatic head rating. Sweet! Good thing, as I have 18 yards ordered.

    M

    #2089435
    Sam Farrington
    BPL Member

    @scfhome

    Locale: Chocorua NH, USA

    "Doesn't Golite use a lighter silnylon (15D) for their poncho tarp?"

    Yes. Posted on another thread the weight of 1.08 osy on my scale. It is listed on the GL site as 15 denier and 1200mm HH. Medium green color. Most interesting, is they claim it is vapor permeable; that is, 'breathes' to some extent. That probably means the coating is polyurethane (PU), not silicone, like the argon.

    Being a 'green weenie' (colorwise), may use it for a front and rear awnings on a 'side entry' tent, with a darker and more waterproof green silnylon for the main body of the tent. How to seal? Sil sealer on silcoat material, PU sealer on PU coated material. So lap fell seams will have sil sealer on one side, PU sealer on the other. Yes, the NAPA sil sealer Permatex will also adhere to some PU coats, so might experiment with that also.

    It would be a gas (no pun intended) if the WPB really worked, but doubt that the PU WPB coat would be breathable enough to reduce condensation on a tent.

    The weave is the mini-ripstop seen on many of the 15D tent fabrics, almost invisible ripstop except when light shines through. Based on Roger Caffin's observations of leakage of ripstop materials, the finer ripstops should create less opportunity for leakage.

    In the last couple years, 15-20D tarps, flies and tent canopies have multiplied in the market, the manufacturer's preference leaning toward PU over sil coats. Not sure why. Have been using high HH 30 denier silnylon for tent floors for several years with no leakage; so doubt the often stated view that the PU coat is more durable per se. Using a 15D 3000mm HH silnylon for a main tent, with a 15D 1200mm HH PU coated nylon for the awnings should yield interesting results in serious rainstorms.

    But ordered samples of the Argon sil to check out the colors – the swatches are not large enough for a reliable weight figure. If one of the colors is light enough for me, will order a yard and test-wash-test to check the HH. With the low price, this could be a real boon to MYOGers if it can maintain waterproofing over 1500mm in ordinary use. It will be a wait and see proposition, though. Better safe than sorry.

    #2089516
    Thomas Conly
    BPL Member

    @conly

    Locale: Lots of canoeing and snow

    Manufacturers lean towards nylons with a PU coating over sil because you can tape a PU coated nylon but you can't tape silnylon. Also, silnylon is not as flame retardant. In fact, I am pretty sure I read somewhere that some of the silnylon available for DIYers doesn't satisfy the safety requirements at all. As a DIYer though, I'm not worried about taping the seams or flame retardant; just give me the lightest stuff you can!

    #2089998
    Aaron Sorensen
    BPL Member

    @awsorensen

    Locale: South of Forester Pass

    Just picked up 5 yards of this to make a shelter simlar to my Polycro shelter.
    Just making it a little longer to fit my pack in the bottom and my dogs to be able to fit with me.

    The Polycro only needs to be for me as the dogs don't see it as a barrier and just walk right through it. Also the sheet is 8 X 10 so you just can't get any bigger or longer for that matter.

    Polycro version weighs 8 ounces, this one should be around 12.
    I may even net the opening for bug protection?

    #2090133
    Ryan Smith
    BPL Member

    @violentgreen

    Locale: East TN

    Yeah, I ordered (7) yards of the red to make a tarp out of. Gonna go ~10×10. Always wanted a square tarp to try several of the different pitches. Curious how much sag and stretch a 10d nylon tarp will have compared to 30d.

    Ryan

    #2090688
    Richard Nisley
    BPL Member

    @richard295

    Locale: San Francisco Bay Area

    I received a sample of brown Argon Silnylon and did a single non-aged HH tests. It tested as high as 3,374 mm H2O in a SINGLE non-aged test area. After I measured multiple test areas, per the applicable standard, there was a much lower average HH rating. The average for all test areas was 702.9 mm H2O.

    Do to the variability of the surface coating’s HH it is not inconceivable that other HH testers may report different values.

    #2090777
    David Drake
    BPL Member

    @daviddrake

    Locale: North Idaho

    10 yards of red Argon sil, ordered Thursday, received today.

    First impression good. Doesn't seem too thin or fragile for a shelter. Maybe a little stretchier on the bias than standard sil, and a smaller ripstop grid. Weight for all ten yards is 17.7 oz–and width is almost 60", rather than 59" advertised. So ounces/square yard matches the 1.06 oz/sy spec.

    Surprised by the color–I was expecting bright red, and this quite dark, with a slight orange cast, esp. with light behind it. Pretty muted for a red, which I think will work well.

    #2090814
    Sam Farrington
    BPL Member

    @scfhome

    Locale: Chocorua NH, USA

    Re: "Manufacturers lean towards nylons with a PU coating over sil because you can tape a PU coated nylon but you can't tape silnylon. Also, silnylon is not as flame retardant."

    So true, and thank you for reminding me.

    #2090871
    Adam Kilpatrick
    BPL Member

    @oysters

    Locale: South Australia

    This looks like a great potential option for floors. If the HH is so high, then I would assume that most of that comes from the thickness of the silicon coating. I'm mostly worried about wearing the sil coating out or exceeding HH on a floor rather than anything else. If we assume that its a similar base fabric to the Argon 67, then its a .49oz sil coating vs ~.2oz to ~0.3oz coating on "regular" silnylons. That's a substatial difference.

    Dutch now has some great bivy fabrics on there at a great price…hmmmm…

    #2091057
    David Drake
    BPL Member

    @daviddrake

    Locale: North Idaho

    The Argon silnylon appears to be completely impregnated with silicone–will the coating wear off, short of wearing a hole in the fabric?

    Since Dutchware carries Argon 90 (uncoated) I assume that is the base fabric for the Argon silnylon. So that would 0.16 oz coating/sy. Glad to see Richard Nisely has confirmed the HH, at least for unaged material.

    #2091067
    Sam Farrington
    BPL Member

    @scfhome

    Locale: Chocorua NH, USA

    Dutchware sent me 4 samples of the Argon silnylon. It is much thinner than the 30 denier silnylon sold by Thru-Hiker. Since durability and resistance to abrasion and penetration are important for a floor, my choice for a floor would still be the T-H material, or possibly the high HH 30 denier silnylon used by Lightheart Gear, which I have used for a floor that is expected to receive a lot of use this spring and summer.

    Not yet having completed a Suter type HH tester, I've found one indicator of water resistance to be how readily a silnylon 'wets out,' or becomes saturated. The camo sample wetted out, or became totally saturated, almost immediately; however the other colors did not.

    The other colors were shiny on one side, and flat on the other, suggesting to me that the silcoat might be limited to one side.

    I'd also note well that Richard did not follow up with further tests or aging. A couple years ago, Roger Caffin agreed to HH test some PU coated paraglider ripstop nylon for me. It weighed around .9 oz/sq/yd, and was closer to Cuben than silnylon in texture and elasticity. His first test was above 1500mm, but he went back to the tester later, and found that the water resistance had dropped to well under 1000mm. Coincidentally, I had been testing the material in rainstorms for a couple weeks, and it did great until when after a storm, it was found totally saturated. I immediately sent Roger an email to forget about the test, but his test results crossed in cyberspace with my email. So, I would not put too much reliance in one isolated test.

    The moral of the story may be to prepare to be disappointed, and perhaps also not to invest too much time and effort in a project before being pretty sure of the reliability of the materials.

    #2091077
    David Drake
    BPL Member

    @daviddrake

    Locale: North Idaho

    I'm sure your caution is justified, Samuel.

    I just tried your "wet out" test with a piece of the red Argon I bought, and also with a piece of 30D silnylon (2nds from DIYGearSupply–so not TH quality). Neither sample absorbed any water. Now that you mention it, I do notice a subtle difference in the two sides of the red Argon silnylon, but I wouldn't say it's as obvious as flat and shiny (nothing like some 70D silnylon I have, which is obviously coated on one side).

    Assuming one side is more coated than the other, which side would you recommend facing out for a shelter or poncho application?

    #2092703
    Aaron Sorensen
    BPL Member

    @awsorensen

    Locale: South of Forester Pass

    Just finished my shelter.
    I thought it would weigh 10-12 ounces but because I am not using any tape it's even lighter than my polycro one.

    Love this stuff.ji

    #2093015
    Richard Nisley
    BPL Member

    @richard295

    Locale: San Francisco Bay Area

    I was in a hurry the first time I tested Argon silnylon and only tested a single spot one time. Today I took the time to analyze the fabric according to the standard's protocol; I am now less than enthusiastic.

    It appears that it is Argon 90 (351 mm HH) with a light silicone based coating increasing the HH to an average of only 703 mm HH & 1.11 oz/yd2.

    Argon 67 @ 20 mm Field of View
    1

    Argon 90 @ 20 mm Field of View
    2

    Argon Silnylon @ 20 mm Field of View
    3

    The average thickness for Argon 90 is .057 mm; the coating added to create Argon silnylon is only .002 mm; and the average total thickness for Argon Silnylon is .059 mm.

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