Seam sealing weight gain?

"Let's turn it around — why would a manufacturer knowingly maintain the *wrong* product specs on their website?"

Easy. Let's take a hypothetical vendor that gets products made from factories in China. Actually, that is pretty likely. Let's assume that the vendor is trying to cater to the ultralightweight crowd (us, here). If most of the vendors of the same kind of product list the weight as 1000 grams, and if our hypothetical vendor starts selling them from a website that lists 1000 grams, then we understand that. Two months later, suppose they list "new and improved" and 950 grams for the same thing. If questioned about this, they can claim that they simply started getting the products from a different factory, and that may be true or false, because buyers have no right to know exactly which factory they came from. If questioned more about this, they could claim that the advertised weight is actually +/- 5%. Well, that hides a multitude of sins. In some cases, a low advertised weight will increase product attractiveness.

All I can say to the consumer is to study the vendors, study the product reviews, study the reported weights from other consumers, and then make your own decisions about one vendor versus another.

Another game you can play is this. Contact a small cottage manufacturer and ask about how many of Item XYZ are in stock. Then ask if he will go through the stock and "bin" them according to weight. Get him to pick out one that weighs only 930 grams instead of the one that weighs 1030 grams. Some will do that for you. The big companies will not. Geez, REI doesn't even list the weight of most products.

–B.G.–

For a period of two years I received stock from TT and then sent it out to Aussie customers.
Every so often I would weigh several shelters just out of curiosity.
Within the same batch most varied between 5 and 15 g however from batch to batch the difference was greater than that at times.
In other words you can't get an exact same weight all the times, maybe we should list it as "aprox weight"

Years ago just to test this (before I had anything to do with Tarptent) I went to a local shop (across the road from work) to weigh one model that they had a few of it in stock.
The tent was made out of Epic( a Firstlight) . From memory I tested 5 or 6, the difference from the lightest to the heaviest was about 100g (3.5 oz) no two shelters had the exact same weight.
At the time the Firstlight was an Ultralite shelter and not that cheap either ($600 here)

I just been to the Backpakgeartest site and opened the review of one tent at random (it happened to be the Arete)
3 tests , 3 weights reported 6 lbs, 5:13 and 5:15
Have a look around that site, you will find that most shelters have a different weight reported between the 3 on test for exactly the same reason why ours (TT) do, fabric weight does change.
franco@tarptent

I purchased a Stratospire 2 recently, with stated weight being 39oz. After seam sealing and without stakes it weighs almost 48oz! That's over a half pound. With out stakes. I have considered returning the tent, but since it is used I will only get a fraction of the cost at their discretion. At this point I can't decide weather or not I will go through with the hassle of it all. I am considering trading it in for a Squall 2, because it's stated weight is lower and the SS2 is a freaking palace for two people. This thread makes me think more and more about it.

On the fence.

I think we can all agree that weights will vary within a production. That's not the issue. The issue is that the manufacturer knows the average weight is higher than advertised, but hasn't changed the specs to match.

its not just the fabric remember, the o.p got 8in stakes instead of 6in… was this just a packing mistake? or does everyone get the longer/heavier 'option'

as for the fabric… for the company involved, im sure it would be in their best interest to update the specs, not only to make them more accurate, but to inform potential customers that they are getting a better more advanced product using better grade fabrics, all be it slightly heavier

"I'm not a textiles expert, Ryan, but your example may be apples/oranges. I suspect the weight of shell fabrics for bags (or Cuben, in the case of zPacks shelters) is far more predictable from lot to lot than silnylon. And the high cost of good down creates an incentive to keep fill weights spot-on."

David – It's all predictable. These shelters are either coming from China for delivery in the states, or the fabric purchased overseas & the shelter built here. How long would it take to weigh & post new specs if different than currently published? You could weigh (10) shelters in 30 seconds I guess. It's either poor QC or some cottage folks would rather not list a higher weight for obvious reasons.

Ryan

"These shelters are either coming from China for delivery in the states, or the fabric purchased overseas & the shelter built here. "
Neither.
The fabric is US made and the shelters are built in Seattle.
BTW , from the TT FAQ :
Roofing High tenacity, 30d, 1.1-ounce/yd2 ripstop nylon, impregnated with silicone. Final fabric weight is approximately 1.5 ounces/yd2.

I'm late to the party – only just noticed the controversy – but just so everyone relaxes I have now bumped the listed weights for the SS1 and SS2 by 3 ounces and noted that they ship with 6 x 8 3/4in stakes (i.e. "heavy" ones).

A few points.

1) "Thru-Hiker sells Shield brand silnylon, and lists weight 1.1oz/sq yard base fabric, 1.4 oz./sq. yard after coating"

If they really are selling 1st quality Shield silnylon, I can guarantee you it doesn't weigh 1.4 oz/yd after coating – try much closer to 1.6 ounces. Those specs are even older than our 2+ year old specs that went into the SS1, SS2 product descriptions.

2) The person claiming that the SS2 from us came in at 49 ounces without stakes has either a bad scale or completely glopped sealer all over the place during his seam-sealing process. Also, contrary to his claim, we at no time have ever listed the SS2 at 39 ounces except possibly a Backpacker gear guide reference a couple of years ago when they specifically requested weights without stakes. We complied and it all felt very sleazy.

3) The end of point 2 brings up another point which is that this is all kind of silly. Yes, our specs were off and yes dated back to 2 years ago when "Shield" was lighter and correspondingly less coated and less waterproof. In addition, this isn't a level playing field. We ship stakes–heavy stakes by gram weenie standards; over 10x the weight of a certain UK manufacturer's toothpick stakes I saw a few years ago–with all our shelters unlike several other companies playing the same general game who don't include stakes and then get to list lower weights all the while enjoying ala carte higher profits selling stakes as an option. Why any tent/tarp should get listed without stakes weight is completely beyond me since you need them to set it up but perhaps we would should move to listing all our shelters without stakes if that's the norm.

4) We don't produce products to be the lightest and whether or not a product is plus or minus a few ounces is irrelevant to the outdoor experience other than to some sort of quasi-mystical belief that it matters. What we do try and do is build high quality, affordable shelters that have high quotients of performance/price and usable volume/price as well as ease of setup, taut fabric etc. and let the weight fall where it does using light materials for general weight savings. If a few ounces matter to you, we aren't the right place to look for a shelter.

-H

"Why any tent/tarp should get listed without stakes weight is completely beyond me since you need them to set it up but perhaps we would should move to listing all our shelters without stakes if that's the norm."

On the few times that I have purchased a tent, one of the first things that I do is discard the stakes that came with it. I substitute lightweight stakes or stronger stakes or whatever.

If there are many purchasers doing this, then it stands to reason that the manufacturer can sell the tent without stakes for a slightly cheaper price, and that is a win-win.

–B.G.–

i like when the head honchos can chip in, thanks Henry, im sure your company will be the better for it

Great post, Henry. Good to see you chime in on this.

The root of the discussion I see is disclosure. I have a simple solution: post both weights, and the expected variation.

Shelter as shipped, trail ready (includes stakes/lines/bag): 29oz
Shelter only (add your own stakes/lines/bag): 25oz
Due to material/construction variation, shelter weight varies +/-2oz.

It gives you equal footing with others who post the bare weight (only). I assume 9 out of 10 of your buyers put the thing on the scale when it shows up, so there's little mystery of the variation after the fact.

A few ounces doesn't change experience as part of full pack weight. It does however matter (to savvy/picky shoppers) when comparing specs.

10% over spec is cause for ruffled feathers, I'd consider returning it IF that changes my decision in hindsight. 20% over stated weight I'd send it back on principle and be vocal about why (6oz for a 30oz stated weight, clearly deception).

Everyone swaps out stakes, its just the way it is. I appreciate them coming with a shelter so its trail-ready, but see them as a bonus/backup to my latest favorite/correct stake for conditions. I'd prefer you keep including them, but break out the weight.

I just got my tarptent notch in the mail today. Listed weight is 26, but after having it seam sealed (from tarptent) it weighed 27.2 – with all stuff sacks, guy lines and stakes. Seems like a very accurate weight from the company, and exactly what would be expected after seam sealing. Great shelter, Great company….Bravo Henry!

"We don't produce products to be the lightest and whether or not a product is plus or minus a few ounces is irrelevant to the outdoor experience other than to some sort of quasi-mystical belief that it matters. What we do try and do is build high quality, affordable shelters that have high quotients of performance/price and usable volume/price as well as ease of setup, taut fabric etc. and let the weight fall where it does using light materials for general weight savings. If a few ounces matter to you, we aren't the right place to look for a shelter."

I love this sort of honesty from a man who owns a company.

I've owned one TT, and while it didn't meet my needs, it was/is a beautifully built/designed shelter. After I seam sealed it (Rainbow) it did indeed add approx 1.5 oz's, which is about what I expected based on past seam-seal jobs. Whenever I think of a non seam-sealed tent, I always mentally calculate the sealer to the listed weight, and have also been around this game long enough to know listed weights can vary due to fabric lots.

I find it shocking someone has been around gear for very long doesn't understand this.

Will also say, I happily look forward to a TT that will meet my future needs. They're brilliant designs, and meticulously made IN THE USA and at a great price-point.

Hard to ask more really…

"Neither.
The fabric is US made and the shelters are built in Seattle."

I was speaking more broadly than just TT with that post, Franco. But, the point remains the same.

Ryan

Ryan,
Yes but reading your "theses shelters" comment some might have concluded that it was directed to or included TT since the discussion was focused on our brand , although it does apply to most.
Anyway it was just an opportunity for me to remind readers that all about Tarptent is US made including the designer.

Fair enough. Thanks for keeping it American. You guys probably don't get enough credit for that.

Ryan

At least for the Notch, TT's website was spot on in regards to weight. Notch including seam sealer, 4 6" stakes, guylines weighed 27.49 ounces on my scale.

That being said, I can understand the OP's disappointment when he received something that was more than 3 ounces over TT website specs. With cottage companies, we basically have to buy stuff sight unseen except for a few reviews here on BPL, so we have to trust the information is correct as it can be.

Thus far, at least in regards to the gear I have purchased from cottage companies, their specs have been exceedingly, and even surprisingly accurate.

Yes, I understand there is variation for fabric weights and other materials. IMO, that should be mentioned on the company's website, as other posters have mentioned. Since TT updated their silnylon and decided to ship larger stakes, then it seems logical to update listed weights to reflect those changes.

I imagine most, if not all, of TT customers care enough about weight that they weigh their gear upon receiving it. Sure, TT isn't the lightest option available these days, but they are hardly a mainstream company pumping out 5+ pound car-camping tents. These shelters are still aimed at people who want to carry a lighter load. And since that is the case, it seems to be in TT's (and other cottage companies') best interest to keep their specs as updated and accurate as possible.

The fact is, all of us here do care about weight. It might not always be the deciding factor, but it does play a factor for every gear decision I make.

But I also hope this a learning experience for some of the younger generation… chit happens. Products vary. Fabrics vary.

And seriously, some of the anal-gram counting around here borders on a clinical disorder. Really.

" Why any tent/tarp should get listed without stakes weight is completely beyond me since you need them to set it up but perhaps we would should move to listing all our shelters without stakes if that's the norm."

Different people want different stakes, for different locales.

Besides, If they already own another UL shelter, a person may already own high quality stakes. Probably dont need more. Why pay $20 for more stakes they dont need?

I dont care for stakes to be included, to me that muddies the issue of shelter wt. I know what MY stakes weigh.

We keep seeing that some mfgs are too lackadaisical about their product specs, and dont realize how important that is to peoples purchasing decisions. That or they never have anything in stock, just imaginary gear.