How useful is waterproof down in a sleeping bag?

[James Marco]

I agree with Nick. I would not expect WM to immediatly jump into any fairly new market. They are slow to innovate. That was never their interest. Their focus was to produce high quality sleeping bags. They did not innovate anything.

Nanatak is more innovative. I think they were one of the first companies to embrace quilts and half bags, more popular in mountaineering/climbing circles. They are much more innovative, but quilts/half bags were popular before they started manufacturing. Again, they don't really innovate, invent, test and market beta models.

Feathered Friends is about the same. They never liked to innovate. They took some tried and true products and simply made high quality varients. Again, walking bags, couples bags, etc have been around a while.

Z packs, EE, et al are even newer companies who use newer technologies as THEIR selling point. But is this ever really new? Yeah, DriDown is new enough, we still have 8 years to go before anything can be said about it as far as durability. Cuben is not the best for bags, anyway. Again, they don't have much to offer, so DriDown or 900FP is about it. But, Even Nunatak admits that 900FP down degrades more than lower fill 750 or 800FP down. The initial weight *might* be an ounce less, with more degradion over the course of a night.

DiDown and ilk are still too new for any to say, good or bad. Yes, the feathers resist water takeup for an hour or two. Tested and proven. Question: Why would this help? I try NOT to get my bag wet. Indeed, I choose fair to good ground to sleep on. I use a tarp. I try NOT to get stuff wet. Even if I dump my canoe, my sleeping gear is in dry bags. Most of my planning, and about a pound of my carry weight, is dedicated to staying dry through three days of torrential rains. Even with DriDown, this would not change. I try to sleep for 7 hours at a time, not for <2. The effect of DriDown on my gear is to pay extra for the treatment, since, I would buy a base 800fp down anyway.

The believe the increased loft associated with DriDown is due to changes in the surface nature of the static charges of the plumes, forcing the down to loft higher. Easy to test for with the current standards, since it is dried pretty thuroughly. But this fails in any sort of real world damp conditions because the charges can dispate before doing any usefull work, ie, seperating fibers in the plume. Down does this naturally, of course. Down bags in general will loft higher if clean and freshly dried. I have dried my bags maybe 50-75 times, they ALWAYS loft higher than when I got them new for the first night. Are they any warmer? Well, no, not really, since this effect disipates with contact, especially with my body. I believe DriDown, and ilk, is a gimmick, and not a true, real world improvement in down. It just tests at a higher loft. I think WM, FF, Nunatak, and others that DON'T use DriDown are using better knowledge and ignoring the marketing hype.

"Perhaps they just want your money any way they can get it." Ha, ha, I believe that is called wally world marketing.

[[ Drew ]]

I am posting this question here rather than starting a new thread:

What is the best way to waterproof the shell of a sleeping bag or quilt? Has anyone tried a DWR or silicone based spray?

From what I've read here, you shouldn't use silicone sprays (like some Atsko products) on DWR treated fabric. I have a zpacks sleeping bag with pertex quantum/ventum with DWR, it'd like to make sure that it is very resistant to condensation or external moisture. On a recent trip there were a couple nights where the shell got pretty damp from cold temps + warm breath and condensation.

[Jake S]

They don't look out for your best interest, they look out for their own. What one or the other says doesn't amount to a hill of beans.

What's nice, though, is that here at BPL we have an editorial staff that has a history of actually testing gear manufacturer claims rather than just xxxx them (*cough*Backpacker*cough*). So maybe at some point we'll get a glimpse as to whether these water "proofing" treatments for down work, or at least roughly how well they work.

---

Children reading us, remember?
Cheers
Roger
(I am not disagreeing, mind you!)

[Justin Baker]

I have a Mountain Hardwear Phantom 15 bag with dwr down. I have found a noticeable difference in it's loft retention when damp over my WM summerlite. I've gotten it damp from dripping rain and I have crawled into it with wet clothes. I think it's worth it if you have the option, but I wouldn't limit yourself on options just for the sake of getting DWR down.

[Roger Caffin]

> From what I've read here, you shouldn't use silicone sprays (like some Atsko
> products) on DWR treated fabric.
Correct.

The problem is that silicone spray and fluorocarbon DWR treatments are totally incompatible. They will not stick to each other. Once you have mixed them up, you might as well kiss the garment goodby (imho).

I have used silicone spray on a silnylon tent. Just a light spray over. I like to think the spray did adhere a bit and smarten up the surface of the silnylon.

If you want to do anything to a quilt or SB, you will have to use a fluorocarbon DWR. They do not use silcone for DWR treatment: it does not last.

Cheers

[Matt Dirksen]

"it'd like to make sure that it is very resistant to condensation or external moisture"

Certainly talk with your bag manufacturer to see if they'd recommend anything.

Personally speaking, I would do absolutely NOTHING to decrease the permeability of my sleeping bags. If I think I'm going to be in a cold/humid environment, I always have a small towell to soak up condensation.

I've also put my bag under a lightweight silk liner or blanket, which in turn, takes on all the condensation. I've found this "extra weight" to be well worth it for many reasons.

[Edward Jursek]

I have hiked for almost 20 years in the PNW with FF down bags, often in wet humid conditions and never had an issue. I have had FF bags with Epic or Pertex Quantum UL Endurance shells that will handle any overspray, sidewall condensation, or spindrift with ease. I don't even bother with bivys. Beyond a bag with a good performance shell, a proper shelter and proper site selection means no worries. I think people are irrationally afraid of their down getting wet and marketers are preying on that.

[Roger Caffin]

> I think people are irrationally afraid of their down getting wet and marketers are
> preying on that.
Well, they need an edge, don't they?
Yep.

Cheers

[Luke Schmidt]

I had plenty of condensation in my old Golite quilt this summer in B.C. No problem in Wyoming. Probably going back to synthetic for wetter trips. Yeah site selection would have helped but my options for sites were pretty limited. Bivys make this worse of course. I don't think the bivy/tarp combo is a good idea really wet climates. In B.C my friend had better luck with no bivy and a WM mummy bag under a Seek Outside BT2.

[Rich K.]

Just as an fyi – when you buy down by the pound from my supplier, it's only a $5 extra to add the WP.

[Diane Pinkers]

Old thread, but saw this article on one person testing out waterproof down in an extreme situation:

cold water immersion

Thought it was interesting, although N=1.

 

[Author]

Posts