Hilleberg Tent Thread Part 2

Hoppin John with his Allak on Bob Mt.

Another Allak shot.

Okay, my turn again—

The Nammatj at the start of a snowstorm.

I got a Nammtj 2 a few weeks ago, have not slept in it yet though.

Kaitum 3 in action.

Stephen M—The Kaitum is looking good and reminds me of a few fotogs in my archive—

Hoppin John setting up his new Kaitum after his Allak got shredded by a terrible windstorm.

Getting camp arranged.

Setting up the Kaitum at a new camp.

Hi Walter,

The Kaitum 3 is by far my favourite tent, I mostly share it with 2 buddies or my wife.
I am looking forward to using the Nammatj 2.

Agree with the Kaitum assessment—in that it is "full body" unlike the Nammatj and Staika/Allak/Soulo which to me means vertical head and foot walls—which means no pesky inner canopy touching the foot of my sleeping bag and wetting it. This fact caused me to go to the Keron (beefier Kaitum) which is Large. Not light.

I'm getting ready to buy a TT Moment DW (sold my Moment SW).

It's similar to the Akto but has a X-ing pole option. As with my Moment SW, I'll put the X-ing pole INSIDE the fly for better support for wind and snow loads.

*Could a Moment DW X-ing pole be made to work inside an AKTO fly in the same manner?

I think it could, giving the AKTO fly much-needed support for snow loads, making it a true 4 season solo tent.

You want to put this pole INSIDE either the Tarptent or the Akto?? Do you have any fotogs of your TT setup?

(This photo is from—
http://www.tarptent.com/momentdw.html

The Akto is a tight squeeze anyway and it would be interesting to have a pole inside but under the attached inner tent/canopy—

That looks like a beast of a tent Walter, the inner of the 3 pole Hillie tunnels
have a massive amount of inner space.

I tried the Soulo on a couple of winter trips and found it a bit cramped so changed
it for an Unna.

Tipi: have you given this tent any consideration? I love mine.
http://www.tarptent.com/scarp1.html

The Scarp is an outstanding tent Lapsley, I used one for one for years and it survived 70mph winds on the side of an Irish Mountain, but the Scarp is really only a 3.5 season tent as most part users will attest too.

Besides the new Hilleberg 3 season offerings and the Atko (and possibly the Nallo) Hilleberg tents are true 4 season tents.

Hilleberg tents are designed to be pitched while wearing mittens in stupid cold temperatures.

And the weight differentials are?
My scarp 1 is definitely capable of 4 seasons unless there are some other criteria of which I am unaware.

del

Rick,

I hear you.

Agreed, Rick, it's critical that the Winter Mountaineering brigade keeps out the spendthrifts :-)

Having owned a few Hilleberg models, I'd agree that most are wasted on people who car camp or "below treeline". Bear in mind, however, that much of the camping in the UK, Ireland and Scandinavia is by definition "above treeline" regardless of altitude, so these shelters are highly valued there.

I tend to use my Kaitum and Nammatj in Colorado above 10000ft. Sometimes above treeline, sometimes below. Usually when I expect the worst conditions. However the Kaitum has the advantage of excellent ventilation and I wouldn't hesitate to use it in the summer in a sheltered location, as I already own it.

del

Aye, you can forget a cuben rainkilt in those conditions. But even Kerlon 1800's not going to keep the nether regions happy when the snow's a swirling. Then, I find a good 18oz Regimental wool kilt plus the obligatory sporran helps keep the natives from being restless.

Oops, I'm about to be banished to the Bushcraft forum for my transgression. It's been a pleasure knowing you all…

Walter,

Yes, I have photos of my single wall Moment with the inside X-ing pole setup. I sold it to Brett Pugh recently but the same setup for a Moment DW is even easier. For the AKTO you can shorten the X-ing pole to end in a grommeted webbing (1" long) sewn to the center of each end. (See my similar conversion of my TT Scarp 2 in "Winter Hiking" here on BPL.

OOPS! Right photo is a guyline shot.

Hi Lapsley,

The crossing poles arrangement on the Scarp can be a bit fiddly and one needs
To be wearing either very light liner gloves (or no gloves at all) to put the crossing poles in place.
If the crossing poles came right to the ground they would allow for better snow loading but that would make it heavier.

Rick M—I use my Keron all year round and in creek valleys or atop mountain balds. My worst windstorms are often in July on 5,000 or 6,000 foot open meadows when I get caught in thunderstorms and "microbursts".

It's sort of radical to consider seeing a 4 season tent set up in the summer in a calm forest as being "unneeded", but then many backpackers are heavily into restricting their freedom by "careful site selection". In other words, don't set up in an open bald during a terrible windstorm or rainstorm or even a winter blizzard with spindrift. Why? Because they do not carry 4 season tents year round.

I never quite know what kind of sandwich Miss Nature is going to serve me on my trips, and so this relates in a way to the Right Tool for the Job philosophy which is actually in my opinion wrong headed reasoning. From a recent trip report—

RIGHT TOOL FOR THE JOB HUBRIS
Don't ever believe the guys who say you need the right tool for the job. It is lunacy and they themselves are tools ha ha ha. Okay, here is how it works—You start out a long January trip into the mountains of NC and TN at 50F with lows at night at 20F. So, you follow the tool guys and take a tarp with a 15F rated bag. No problem. The first 3 days go great. Then WHAM you reach a 5,300 foot open bald with high winds and snow at 12F so the tarp needs to be dumped for a 4 season tent, another tool for the new job. Your bag of course is substandard. And then here is where it gets fun—and it really happened on my recent trip—your UL right tool gets hammered on January 6-7 with a polar vortex with temps at -8F and you did not bring even "righter" tools to handle this arctic outbreak. Why?

UL AT ALL COST
Because like an idiot you wanted to be ultralight at all costs. So, what did the right tool for the job philosophy do for you? It either killed you in subzero temps in the mountains or it caused you to bail and bug out to a town or it caused you to spend a couple hellish sleepless nights in a fetal ball around an outdoor fire if you're lucky. So yes, a winter backpacking trip can go from 60F with a tarp to -10F in a spindrift hell wind but the tool boys will tell you to not carry that extra 20 or 30 lbs of winter stuff cuz you won't need it. Wrong. Down pants? Yes. Down mittens? Yes. Down overkill parka with hood? Sure. Four season bombproof tent? Yup. A minus 15F sleeping bag? Hell yes. High Rvalue sleeping pads? Yes. Extra food and plenty of white gas? Yes. Down booties? Yes.

BELOVED ULTRALOADERS?
Are these things the right tools for a trip at 60F? No. Can that trip turn on you and require a whole new set of tools? Yes. And BTW, when these trail gurus talk of having the right tool for the job, why is it always with the idea of going lighter and going ultralight? In other words, it only seems like UL proponents spew the right tool for the job mantra. You never hear heavyweight "ultraloaders" say, "Have the right tool for the job". Why? Because they know such a statement is wrong and even stupid, they know you must carry heavier gear to account for 60F and -10F all in the same trip, and they know to do so your kit must be heavier.

"No way!!" they howl. "My 10lb baseweight will work in the winter too!!" And yet where are they at -10F on a snowy night in the TN mountains? I guess they are right in one sense when they say to have the right tool for the job—a set of car keys so they can bail. A normal person would think that January 6-7 would be the time you see the most backpackers and especially ULers as it gives them the opportunity to really test their kits and whether their 15 lb baseweight will really work. END O RANT

And Eric, thanks for the fotos as I imagine such a setup would help the Akto though I still worry about headroom.

"And BTW, when these trail gurus talk of having the right tool for the job, why is it always with the idea of going lighter and going ultralight? In other words, it only seems like UL proponents spew the right tool for the job mantra."

Oh god, more of this rhetoric. Tipi: Why is your advice is to always go heavier and with a larger safety margin? I can foresee the Answer: BLAH BLAH BLAH

Tipi, we all know your shtick. And every time you present it here on BPL, someone points out that it's a shtick. You feel you have to present "the opposite side of the coin", but you are either unwilling or incapable of discussion why anyone is flipping a coin in the firstplace. When you're unwilling to advance the conversation, we just call that trolling.

But, just because you've started rambling I'm sure someone will engage you with a few paragraphs of their own, and it will eventually become dull and repetitive. I just hope we can cut it off here and stop the cycle. But I'm sure you will respond by restating your position on hauling a kitchen sink with you everywhere.

So on and so forth forever and ever, Amen.