The crappiness of pit zips

Huh?

"In my book traditional pit zips are useless. The OR torso flow arrangement is another thing entirely, and works well. I'd much rather see conventional zippers and flaps on rain coats than the fashionable but hard to use and less durable water resistant zips."

Is this four unrelated thoughts, or are they somehow linked together?

"..traditional…" "…conventional…" — pit zips, or front zips? both? neither?

To much coffee man ….

del

Let us try again Greg.

Traditional pit zips do not do enough to merit the addition in bulk, weight, and expense.

To be un-fiddly a zipper must be operable one handed at a rate of no less than 10 inches/second while hiking in the dark at not less than 3 mph. In the rain, obviously.

The OR Torso Flow design provides enough ventilation to make a substantive impact on moisture buildup within a rain jacket, while it is raining, and still keep rain out. Ergo, if you're going to put vent zippers on your coat, do it this way. It should be noted that part of the success of this design is the rather boxy torso most OR coats seem to have.

Insofar as water resistant zippers still need a flap to be functionally waterproof in downpour conditions, and insofar as said zips are both harder to operate smoothly with one hand and less durable than conventional (aka non-water resistant) zippers, it is a better idea to just have good rain flaps and do away with the water resistant zips entirely. Which, so far as I can tell, were introduced by Arcteryx as a primarily aesthetic innovation.

And rain coats should have #5 zippers.

Capiche?

Yep. Compared to your elegant blog posts, this one left me wondering –

I agree regarding the current "water resistant" zips …. non-functional POS, everyone of them.
And, I prefer old style zips, with flaps and gutters.

(I do have gear with 5 meter waterproof zips, and it would never meet the 10 inches/second criteria.)

I will not buy a jacket / rain jacket without them. When the wind is coming and going, temps can change frequently … on the 4 loops pass Colorado last year, the sun would hide behind clouds every 20 or 30 minutes resulting in huge temp swings …. instead of having to take off pack, jacket, etc. … would regulate with front zipper and pit zips … Also sometimes I'm kicking ass going up a hill and I get hot … then I go downhill and cool off … pit zips rock for these swings…. but different strokes for different folks. :)

"I do have gear with 5 meter waterproof zips, and it would never meet the 10 inches/second criteria."

I certainly exempt my drysuit from that rule.

> When the wind is coming and going, temps can change frequently … on the 4 loops
> pass Colorado last year, the sun would hide behind clouds every 20 or 30 minutes
> resulting in huge temp swings …. instead of having to take off pack, jacket, etc
Yeah, I know, a real pain. It's having to take your pack off to don and remove the jacket every time which is the problem.

Our solution, which works wonderfully, is to skip the jacket completely and use a poncho like The Packa or the ones I made. One moment the poncho is flung right back off my shoulders, the next moment it is wrapped around me and done up – all while walking at full speed. Just so easy.

Cheers

Are you talking then of ALL water-resistant zips, or only the original ones ? Because now there are YKK water-resistant Vislon zips or those from Riri.

BTW, my jacket is like 10 years old and has water-resistant front, pocket and pit zips. No durability issues and they run all pretty smoothly.

And yes, water-resistant zips were introduced by Arc'teryx, but not for fashion reasons but because the more traditional set-up of conventional zip with a stormflap was bulkier and heavier (their claim).

I have a jacket with pit zips but they don't seem that effective, not enough area to vent, better to have full front zipper which has much bigger area for venting.

Just seems like one of those gimmicky features that Americans are into, but tomorrow I'll probably change my mind and love them.

I have regular front zipper without any flap. I have never noticed a strip of wetness where water got through. Maybe occasionally I'll notice a bit of wind blowing through. Maybe it would be more important in long heavy rain, but I avoid that, and besides, if it rains enough I'll eventually get wet inside regardless if a tiny bit of water leaks through the zipper.

So, I'll start off with that responsive ad hominem…

I find the pit-zips in my admittedly-untrendy PreCip to be functional, easy to zip in both directions and part of a clothing system that establishes I am wearing exactly the right amount of clothing for someone qualified to manipulate zippers and understand how to use his/her own gear. As my speed or exertion changes while hiking in rain, it's no difficulty to adjust the vents in either direction, whether I'm hiking with, or without, a pack on.

If you don't know how to use them right, I'd imagine the little bits would be wasted-weight, and probably enough to ruin your calculations over base-carried/worn. But, like any other gear one learns how to use in a system that works for oneself, the little fellas might earn their keep for others unlike yourself. Frankly, it should be no skin of the nose of either…

When I manage to wear this gear out, I'll look for another shell with pit zips, too. Those OR shells look pretty smart.

Erik, that's unnecessarily snide. Knowing when to ventilate and how operate a zipper is a different issue than ease of use of conventionally located pit zips. I think the design sucks. If I have to dig around and yank my hem or sleeve up and down, or add a 4 inch loop of cord (a definite snagging hazard), then I'm less likely to bother using them as intended and won't get the full functionality.

I like the OR design. It's one of the options I mentioned in the OP, although I didn't know which company was offering it until eric made his post. I think it addresses the usability issues quite nicely.

Like the OR design, but this Arcteryx one too.
Good venting through side zip instead of front zip. Less exposure than front zip. Other arm is good sized pit zip.

Roger Caffin:

"Yep, but my solution is different. Seems to me that what the need for pit zips really means is that you are wearing too much clothing. Take some off instead.

Yes, that does mean that sometimes we will walk in the rain without any jacket, and our shirts get wet. So? If it continues to rain and we are still warm, no problem. If it stops raining, we dry out. If we get cold, then we might put on a poncho. They are warming."

+1

I've also found pit zips in jackets to be a pain. I've generally left them undone, then do them up if I have to.

I'll add to Roger's post without reading the rest of the thread, that if you need pitzips, maybe you should be wearing a windshirt instead. Maybe just a windshirt with nothing underneath. Sure, if its pouring with rain you will get wet, but you will likely be warm. Add a buff or gloves to boost your temp if you need. Etc.

If its well and truly below zero, and you are over-working your WPB, put on your windshirt. If it precipitates, chances are its going to be the well and truly frozen kind and your windshirt will not wet out. You are much more likely to get wet and have issues inside from your own sweat (if you are dressed too warmly) than from external moisture in most well below freezing conditions.

With any jacket, I have always found the benefit of pitzips to be quite minimal. Other options that other people have mentioned, like chest zippers backed with mesh, the main jacket zipper, etc, are usually just as effective.

For reasons only known by Dead Bird, the Alpha SL pullover is now discontinued.

Personally I have been enjoying pit zips on my garments… There have been many muggy wet trips were my arms would find their way through the pit zip openings, just to get them out of those jacket sleeves.

But ponchos are great, too! I think I'd like a simple shawl sometimes. One that morphs into a killer tarp, perhaps.

And umbrellas – you can't get more breathable than that!

Except for getting wet, which is sometimes a fabulous gift, sometimes deadly.

I guess it all depends on where I am, and when I'm there.

I guess pit zips are kind of like the fog lights on my car. They help, I think.

I already wear practically nothing, even in temps down to 0°C. A light T-shirt (range Cap 1) certainly and perhaps a windshell. More I don't need. And in rain, the WPB goes not automatically on but I decide if it's appropriate. And sometimes (often) it is. And then, I sometimes need vents.