Square footage and ultralight practice: how much space does one person really need?

For marketing reasons? Sellers tend to over-state the specs.

And if one seller advertised a tent as one person, and another the same sized tent as two person, the two person tent would sell more, so sellers are forced to do this.

Some people are fine with "one person" sized tents for one and "two person" tents for two so it's not lieing

Probably depends on rain/wind (even the Complete Walker recommended a big tarp for wetness in the PNW), occupant height, and comfort needs – I've used GoreTex bivies when just needing sleep alongside the trail.

A bit of history: With solo tents, it was hard to size down since a solo tent took the same amount of traditional tent fabric lengthwise as a duo, … and pole wise, the Hille Akto set up was the height of efficiency. So, up until the end of the 1990's, the rule of thumb was to add 1 to stated manufacturer's estimates for about 6 ft (+) sized males, and since this meant using a "2P" tent for solo, width wasn't a problem.

That shouldn't a problem with UL fabrics especially cuben.

Even with trad fabric (and complaints/returns), some solo tent manufacturers started the tents making longer (I had a North Face Canyonlands at 109" and still have a MSR Zoid 1 at 110" length – I sleep toes stretched out due to an old Achilles injury) … and then there was the whole "1+" movement. Right now the old single wall Moment fits me with a little spare length and a couple taller buddies all go with Tarptent too for enclosed shelters …, so …

BLUF I've been "taking notes" on some of the recent best shelter threads.

Add: I've been thinking the ultimate shelter would be a cuben semi-Notch tarp with the separate screen shelter (again) cuben if bugs are bad … but with only 1 door.

Ed: adds

It's just that raw square footage and usable space are different. My Gatewood Cape covers 35sq ft, which is the same as many 2 person tents. The steepness of the sides is the real difference. Some prefer more space for dressing, gear storage, sitting headroom, dogs, etc.

What is comfortable for a 5'5" 150 pound hiker may be very different for a 6'6 250 pound user. Like sleeping pads, the compromises of comfort that a user will tolerate are different too. Some one person shelters are very coffin like, which some have no problem with, just like some can sleep on a 1/8" pad. There are so many variables that reviews are the best way to get good information for making a purchase.

It would be good to get accurate specs for user height on tents. I see more questions on that subject than any other. I'm sure it's the first consideration for anyone over 6'.

Many one person shelters are only just big enough for one person to lay under and stay dry… similarly with two person shelters, a lot of them you can get two people under but not have room to do much else other than lay there and sleep. Of course this works just fine, but when the weather sucks there tends to be a lot of contortionism going on to change out of your wet clothes, get your sleeping bag set up, cook your food, etc.

For the last few years my solo tarp was a Spinnshelter which qualifies for the "only just big enough for one" criteria… when it actually rained on me, doing anything in it was a hassle and I had to constantly make sure I didn't let the foot of my sleeping bag slide out from under the perimeter and get wet. It works just fine and is consistent with the UL ethos of only bringing what you need, but just like sleeping on a torso-sized ridgerest for some people it gets old after awhile and they start looking for comfier options.

These days I use a Hexamid Solo Plus for my solo trips, which has enough room to sit up and cook even when the weather sucks, and for two people I use a Trailstar which has enough room to actually live under with two people. My opinion on how big my shelter needs to be changes quite a bit with what the weather is doing at that moment in time.

These answers are all very good, but they don't really address why there is a huge focus on saving grams elsewhere but for a shelter it's de rigeur to accept the extra ounces. If we leave aside body size, is there a lack of attention being paid to things in-shelter gear management or psychological aspects that should be addressed to allow people to use smaller, lighter shelters?

I haven't noticed an increased focus on shelters compared with any other piece of gear. Plenty of people talk about going with a framed pack or a full-size inflatable pad for more comfort. Perhaps if there is a difference it has to do with the fact that in a shelter you can get quite a bit more room for just a few more ounces, whereas to go from a frameless pack to a framed one usually involves half a pound to a pound of weight increase. I tried a few shelters, figured out what worked for me and I don't worry too much about it past that.

This one time at summer camp we fit 4 people in a "one person" tent.

I've never actually backpacked with anything but a tarp, but my 8×10 is perfect and roomy. If I were to get an actual shelter it would be a 2 person. I've been stuck in tiny one person tents when car camping in thunderstorms and it was very cramped.

1 person is often literally one person, not 1 person with gear.

Are you sure it was summer camp and not band camp?

It's true a couple more ounces probably goes further in a shelter than in most other kinds of gear.

"These answers are all very good, but they don't really address why there is a huge focus on saving grams elsewhere but for a shelter it's de rigeur to accept the extra ounces."

Do you mean people will opt for a 2 person shelter to get the extra space and compromise on the weight?

That happens in every aspect of UL gear choices. Sleeping pads are one major weight compromise, where many will opt for a heavier but comfy pad while the rest of their kit is very UL. It goes that way with packs too, where framed packs are chosen for the comfort over similar sized unframed models. It's not inconsistency, but rather accepting the weight in order to get more comfort.

For me a major principle of UL is that you have control over the weight of your kit, but there should be rational, conscious choices rather than ones based on tradition, emotion (like fear) or superstition. I don't automatically choose the absolute lightest item: I want the lightest item that will deliver the level of performance that I desire. I take a pillow, allowing me to sleep better and I accept the weight, but I know why I'm including it, and it's the lightest I could find or afford that would work for me. If you don't need a pillow or have a workable alternative, good for you :) It does come down to hike your own hike.

Another factor in shelter choices is that many want one shelter rather than several. They may use a 2 person rig for solo trips with the option of using it for two at other times.

Because volume in a tent, tarp or pack goes up as the cube of the linear dimension while material/weight goes up as the square of the linear dimension. So the volume to weight ratio (functionality to weight ratio) goes up in direct proportion to the size.

Stated another way, for the weight of a cliff bar you can get a duo Hexamid instead of the solo – fits two, or fits all your gear inside with room to spare. A la Dale's comment about choosing, I KNEW this when I CONSCIOUSLY bought the duo-sized Hexamid over the Solo.

The more expensive the item, the more people will not want to specialize. In the present case you get much more functionality for the buck and weight, so I think this comes under the heading of bragging rights only – you get this greatly added functionality at ~ 1/10 of 1 % of your body weight.

People don't talk about it or an analyze it obsessively as in this context (it has to be said) it is not a REAL issue, unless you want gram weenie bragging rights. In the present (exceptionally pricey) context, of academic interest only. More interesting to obsess on how to make your gear do more things once you reach this point. Perhaps more interesting to discuss having a SUL CLOSET, and not just individual kits, as Dale mentions. On the other hand, if his posts are any indication, Dale probably has a HUGE gear closet. LOL

Still, it is fun to analyze the weight of gear with the SAME functionality, especially when you are trying to get JUST the functionality that you want (note I don't say "need"), and no more – like the weight of a sharp thing, and so on.

You bet. The GoLite Shangrila 1/2 tents were that way, with the 2 person being just 2 ounces more than the solo. I never did compare the nests, which may have had a larger spread.

The other factor with solo/duo shelters is the space needed to pitch the thing. I've never really had a problem, but there were times when I got creative with guy lines and big logs of rocks.

I image there are some wind issues when comparing a solo vs a duo of the same model. Some solo shelters get weirdly tall and narrow and look like a sail sticking up and just asking to trap a good gust. The Golite Utopia 1 comes to mind, but it was well guyed on the side. I could live with less head room, saving weight and bulk and giving better wind performance. As the height comes down, the angle of the sides change and compromise reigns.

"These answers are all very good, but they don't really address why there is a huge focus on saving grams elsewhere but for a shelter it's de rigeur to accept the extra ounces. If we leave aside body size, is there a lack of attention being paid to things in-shelter gear management or psychological aspects that should be addressed to allow people to use smaller, lighter shelters?"

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I think it comes from people who have had real-world experience of being crammed into too small a shelter during long periods of inclement weather. Also, 2P shelters have gotten so light that in some instances they are lighter than 1P shelters. I have a LLBean Microlight FS1 1-person tent and my 2P Big Agnes Fly Creek UL2 is lighter. Yes, I could go lighter with a UL1, but why?

On the flip side, there are plenty of purists on this forum who do indeed count every ounce, including their shelter, and make-do with shelters that I would find to be unacceptably small.

The only difference is the conditions you will be using your shelter with.
In Alaska's summers, with mosquito's and blackflies lasting basically all summer, I want a fully enclosed shelter. In the pacific northwest, I would concentrate on a larger roof. In the south western deserts, I might cowboy camp…skipping a shelter. And so on. Everyone will have his own idea of what a perfect 1 or 2 person shelter is. Or a perfect winter shelter. There really isn't any one right or wrong size or shape. Near Mt Washington, we get some of the strongest winds in the world, and, they will twist and turn in 10 minutes. A simple 4'6×7' tarp will NOT cut it as a negative example.

But manufacturors are NOT regionally oriented. Well, maybe a few cottage companies are. So you get a large variety of sizes and shapes, all claiming to be adequate shelter. I suppose they are under the right conditions. Let the debates continue. There is no right answer. In general, I find that a 45 degree angle drawn back from an edge will give you fair coverage. In heavy winds, even this can fail. You need to decide if a wet pack and gear is OK. There is little in my pack at night, soo, often it is used as a storm barrier or part of my pillow. Anyway, figure how much you need to sleep. Add the buffer area. Add in your gear if you want that covered. Add a cooking vestibule if you plan on cooking under it. I think you will come up to about 30-35sqft of coverage for a tarp, 20-25' for a tent. You need to add about 15' for a second person. It really depends on what you are comfortable with, and willing to accept. Everyone will choose differently.

I, for one, have sized up and use "2 person" shelters for solo hiking. I found the "solo" shelters to be a tight fit, had little room to store/sort/dry gear, and offered thinner margins of safety in really rough weather. Trading my Zpacks Hexamid Solo for a Hexamid Twin was 3 ounces well spent and the sum of the advantages is much greater then the extra 3 ounces. It has meant tons of extra room inside for changing, storing, sorting, drying my gear, flexibility to bring my daughter along, added safety in heavy rain and windy weather. I picked up an MLD cuben DuoMid for the same reasons. I use the GG LT4's with extenders for an "A" frame and tons of space for a 12oz shoulder season shelter that I can also use for a planned move into winter camping. For UL purposes, 12oz shelters with tons of room are not an issue for me or for keeping my base weight under control.

FWIW, I use an MLD SoloMid and can't imagine ever needing more room for myself; that includes most winter camping I do.

I agree that sometimes the whole is greater than the sum of it's parts, and for just a few extra ounces I could get (a lot?) more space, but this defeats the purpose of UL for me.

I bring certain items that increase weight carried as well as comfort, but in this case I draw the line.

Comparing the cuben DuoMid with the SoloMid, you get more floor space and it is taller for an extra 2oz. The extra room is a luxury for me. It would be neat to see them both set-up next to each other and get a better idea of they compare. Raw numbers don't always do it for me.

Sorry for quick thread drift, but I think it pertains to this topic.

I don't want to apply terms to other people, but for me going UL is a greater mindset than simply taking lighter/less stuff outside. I've been what I consider to be a pretty prudent minimalist for a very long time and apply the ideas of UL to almost every aspect of my life. With that said, I already have a solo shelter that works very well for me and my goals, and I simply can't justify buying another shelter (financial means notwithstanding) to replace one that already works to my satisfaction for only a marginal increase in comfort.

I understand the futility of making an argument against purchasing a new shelter (or other gear) in a forum of obsessive gear geeks, just thought I'd throw out it out there. (And yes, I would describe myself as a slightly obsessive gear geek as well.)

Goes back to the OP: "How much space does one person really Need?"

Again, apologize for slight thread drift.

Actually Andrew, that's basically what I was talking about (albeit unclearly) in the first place. If you're going by math, sizing up makes sense. If you're going by philosophy, maybe not so much.

"These answers are all very good, but they don't really address why there is a huge focus on saving grams elsewhere but for a shelter it's de rigeur to accept the extra ounces."

"for the weight of a cliff bar you can get a duo Hexamid instead of the solo – fits two, or fits all your gear inside with room to spare."

I'm going to echo some of the comments made above in regards to owning the Hexamid Twin vs the Solo+ or Long. I enjoy having the extra room to bring the gear in with me. When solo, it's a palatial shelter but I also like the fact that I can share it with one of my kids.

I can't remember the total weight of the tent, groundsheet, and ti stakes but at <1.5lbs, this was a smart purchase for me. I could get by with less but I'd rather save weight somewhere else.

It's really about weight/function. People on this forum tend to be so well educated on outdoor gear that they start to get into the weeds sometimes.

Face it, the difference in functionality between a 12oz shell and a 14oz shell is not that great. Nor between a 1oz etoh stove and a 3oz etoh stove. So you may as well get the lighter one.

Back in The Day the weight difference between a 1P and a 2P tent might be a pound! But with modern UL shelters the weight difference is much less. For instance the difference in livability between a cuben SoloMid and a cuben DuoMid is enormous, and yet they also differ by just 2oz…

I could use a SoloMid, yes, absolutely. It would function. Or I could carry 2 more ounces and solo in a "palace." That seems worth it to me, as an experienced and educated UL consumer.

Dean,

I think you really nailed it. Having spend many years between the mid-80's and early 2,000's working in the outdoor equipment world, then pretty much ignoring the market for the next decade, I am now in awe with how much lighter base backpacking equipment is; especially in regards to tents, packs, and sleeping gear.

Although 2p tents were the norm, the solo enthusiast had options which were typically 25% to 60% lighter. That weight difference back then is the same as the total weight of most cuben tents, nowadays. Of course the typical customer would look at any of our "two-man" tents, squint their eyes, and say: "Can you really fit two full grown men into that thing?"

However, I very clearly remember that when EITHER the cost or weight difference between two pieces of equipment became arguably negligible in the mind of the customer, they would then seek to understand how one piece of gear could provide more "potential" functionality than the other. If they were convinced one could offer more "potential" options than the other, they had made up their mind (assuming other comparative attributes were of similar value.)

But to make that choice, they already had to be convinced that the cost (or weight) was "the same".

Regardless, I still see great "value" in seeking out a specific tool for a specific purpose, and leave the rest at home. To me, UL philosophy is all about knowing precisely what I am willing to have with me to balance the safety and comfort of what I am doing. That mindset goes far beyond just backpacking.

In this way, I am always reminded of the tools I have in the basement. I loved my cordless drill, until I "tasted the Cool Aid" and got the impact driver. Most of the time, I had used the cordless drill for screwing and unscrewing, and rarely for actually drilling stuff.

Then I watched my carpenters work with the cordless impact driver, and my world changed. Now, I have a tool that does "most" of what my old drill did, but the whole thing weighs less than the just battery of the drill. (And now my wife doesn't mind using it, too!)

But it all boils down to use: what is the "True Cost" of going to multi-use, and what am I gaining or giving up by that choice?

(Not that I plan to bring an impact driver on my next UL trip… :) )