Gear Swap practices

Observations:

In 2009 there were 2,875 threads started in Gear, and 2,975 started in Gear Swap.

In 2013 there were 3,325 threads started in Gear, and 6, 975 started in Gear Swap.

BPL's character is changing. There are Many members who do nothing but gear swap. I suspect they "mine" and sell across several forums.

The "forum police" here are a formidable crowd. It can get pretty rough when they think something is overpriced, or sub-par, especially when links are provided. So even a noob, has some level of "protection".

I pay attention to "due diligence" when I buy. Maybe it was a gift. Maybe it sat on the shelf for a year. Maybe it was low balled elsewhere. But if the item fits my needs, quality, and price, I'll buy it.

I have refused to sell to a number of "Gear Swap Only" buyers, preferring to sell to contributing members instead, even if it means a lower price for me to move the item.

All you can do is pay attention, help when you can, try to ignore the occasional jerk, and pass if you don't like the offer.

I'm a paying member on two forums. This one, and fredmiranda.com. Fredmiranda is light years beyond this forum. Directly related to this thread is the fact that like eBay, fredmiranda.com has brilliantly incorporated "ratings" or "reputation" for each user that participates in the buy/sell forum. It appears right under the username just like eBay and it makes buying and selling things, often through unsecured paypal Friend, a bit more secure. Fredmiranda also has incorporated specialized icons in the buy/sell forum such as 'price reduction' and 'bump' after number of hours to keep it fresh and up to date. I'm often at a loss at how old and backwards the BPL forum is. I mean, the PM system is such a joke and having a real one would greatly improve our gear swap forum.

I'm actually blown away that more people don't get ripped off here. Other than doing research and digging into old threads, there is no way to tell if the person you are buying from is trustworthy.

Sorry to go off topic.

Which has been every case so far. I don't really give a RA what those same folks might think should I be able to leverage another sale to offset some of those losses.

>> So i guess i got my answer from and by the majority of folks, it's ok to buy something here for lower and turn around and sell for higher as long as some sucker is willing to buy it. Greed, it's what's great about America and the general Western mind set. Thanks to the people who responded, who think otherwise.

Wow, a little bitter and judgmental, don't you think? Someone is "greedy" because they won't sell you something on gear swap for the price you think you should pay? And the rest of us are too because we don't agree with you?

FWIW, I could give Jennifer a run for her money as the most 'liberal commie pinko' here but, while you said you politely "reminded" the seller what he'd paid for the item, if I were the seller and you gave me a lecture with that attitude about how you'd looked up my buying/selling history and that I *should* sell it to you at a lower price, I probably wouldn't have lowered the price either, simply out of annoyance.

Greed's one thing but there's "self-righteousness" too.

Political leanings and approaches to the economy have nothing to do with personal interactions and honesty in Gear Swap, period.
Some of the greediest people I know are always pointing the finger elsewhere.

"Greed's one thing but there's "self-righteousness" too."

Not to mention, as someone else pointed out, expecting a lower price is a different sort of greed. Its just that the buyer benefits instead of the seller.

I figure people should be able to sell a thing they own for whatever price they want. They own it after all.

Some good food for thought, and I'm with Jennifer, this thread is interesting. Trace and Mark brought up the issue of choice. I should have used a different word than "ignorant", maybe "un-willfully naive" would be better. I've been a serious lurker on this site so I know Justin is not an ignorant buyer because I've come across his posts in the past. But because as Jon pointed out, there are no ratings on GS, there's no way to know whether or not the description is accurate or the seller is legitimate, and I assume (maybe I'm wrong) that handling an issue between buyer and seller is outside the realm of moderators here at BPL… maybe other people have insight into this through past experiences. Unless you can see and touch the item I would say there is always going to be discrepancies (honest and dishonest ones). So I would have to disagree with the notion that buyers on GS have a clear choice. The way it's set up now, and as Justin seems to have experienced, there is room for false choice because certain greedy and untransparent individuals will take advantage of the capitalist mindset that if there is no regulation against it, then it is therefore acceptable (regardless of whether it is ethical). These people suck but we want gear so we put up with it I guess.

Again, I don't think these GS traders are really that big of an issue, people on this forum tend to have a bit of disposable income so losing a few dollars here or there probably doesn't matter much in the long run. For those without much money, getting screwed can cause significant distress… but then again I like new gear (I wouldn't be here otherwise) and here I do agree with the "choice" statement; I can always just not buy new gear (probably the far better decision in most cases). What I don't agree with is when someone dishonestly claims to be giving you a "clear" choice when in reality its a different choice.

If you make an honest effort to price something and you do a poor job of it and somebody sends you info that suggests you ought to augment your price… is there any foul there? I would actually appreciate someone bringing that to my attention. And where people are getting the idea that we should be selling things to each other at a significant discount, I don't understand that, and I don't think the OP was suggesting that either. If you want to give something away then all the more power to you, but this is not going to drive market prices down, BPL's gear swap doesn't exist within a vacuum (there's the force of the retail market, Ebay, craigslist, etc.). If someone sends you a link of a particular piece of gear that sold for less than what a seller is selling it at at the moment, then you should be able to provide links to retail sites, ebay auctions, craigslist postings, etc. that justify your price.

Greg M. good for you, it's awesome to hear that you have refused to sell to some of those buyers in the past. This is what GS COULD be. A community recycling gear to other excited users for a fair price and from someone you hopefully know and respect.

A question for Mark H.:

If you wouldn't do it yourself then why would you try and defend the idea hypothetically? Sorry to put you on the spot but what you wrote just strikes me as self-contradictory.

To address Kendra's point, I don't think GS is where you go for great deals (try Ebay and other giant retailers for that). GS is where you go for an excellent selection of gear that actually works and is not bogged down by trends and gimmicks. I have heard Roger C. make this point and I agree. You go to GS because by in large the people on BPL are good people (although the stats that Greg M. posted suggest it's quickly changing) and assuming you by from someone who posts on the site away from GS, you are probably getting a very reasonable quote. I have plans to sell a backpack on GS shortly and I will be taking Greg's position. Hopefully I am able to put it up for a fair price and if it isn't I trust you all to post/PM otherwise ;)

Slightly off topic, but…

Since we're talking about BPL being a community and how that translates to different expectations on gear swap as opposed to e.g. eBay, I'm guessing we'd all agree that we should also try to be respectful, non-judgmental, and welcoming in other areas of the forum as well, including this thread! I don't think it helps to call people names or put-down adjectives, or alienate people you disagree with.

I also want to caution people against judging those who are just posting on gear swap. When I first joined here I only posted on gear swap. Lately I've become comfortable enough to start posting elsewhere, but it took a little bit of time. Gear swap is a really useful forum and I don't see why it matters if its usage is increasing as long as its integrity is in tact and other areas of the forum are still doing active. If people are coming to gear swap to prey on BPL gear junkies that's another thing, but I don't think that's been the case. If someone wants to pay $10 to sell some stuff on gear swap, why does it matter? They're helping BPL by giving them more money and making gear swap a better marketplace. And maybe they'll start contributing to other areas of the forum eventually, who knows.

Personally I can't imagine not too long ago coming into the another part of the forum and reading someone's diatribe about people who only post on gear swap. I would just feel really judged and more likely not to join in the discussion.

You make some very good points Stephen.

"I figure people should be able to sell a thing they own for whatever price they want."

Matthew, I don't think that is what you meant.

I think what you meant was that people should be able to offer to sell a thing they own for whatever price they want. Nobody has any inherent right to sell anything for whatever they want. That could get ridiculous.

–B.G.–

Katharina, point taken, but are you saying that what we write here on the forum is in no way a reflection of how we live and interact in the real world? Sorry if I have misinterpreted what you wrote and please do explain otherwise if that's the case, but personally I try my best to practice what I preach and I think a good amount of people out there do too. When I claim that most posters on this forum I think are good and honest people (again, maybe I'm being naive here) I would like to think they also practice what they preach. I'm guessing you would just say I'm being overly optimistic about the human condition; point taken there.

I like your point too Stephen. Let me be clear though, a scumbag as I used the term, is to describe someone who goes to GS, buys some gear from people, amasses an inventory of gear at home, then turns around and sells those goods at a %20 mark-up (as an example). Not because they don't know what the going rate is (quite the opposite actually), and not because they are a person who feels comfortable only posting on GS (as long as you make an honest effort to sell your stuff at a fair price; I already made this point); there's no dishonesty there. I will refrain from the "scumbag" term though as per your suggestion.

Sumi, I agree that it is self-righteous to expect someone to sell you something at the price you think it should be sold at. But doesn't that "annoyance" you mentioned also stem from a sense of self-righteousness on the part of the seller? Is it not self-righteous to buy something publicly for a low price then turn around and sell the same piece of gear publicly, then to be questioned about a record of sales on that piece gear (which is also public) and then to get annoyed because someone pointed that out? Maybe shameless is a more appropriate word. That also sounds likes a self-righteous capitalist to me. There's no rule against it so what the hell I must be right. Personally I probably wouldn't have gone as far as to confront the person because if they want to behave like that then so be it, unfortunate, but also self-righteous as you point out to expect them to sell it for the price YOU feel is fair. Just pass on that (those) sellers I guess; it's just a bummer as I pointed out in my first post. Life isn't fair (it could be much more fair if we stopped saying that) as others have pointed out. I just have a problem with using that as a justification for one's actions.

Another point, the fact that people on BPL can act as "forum police" as someone I think said, and go on "diatribes" against people who treat GS like a personal business is a good thing. One thing I don't understand from what you said though Stephen, why did you feel more comfortable to post gear on GS before posting in the other forums? I find myself in the opposite situation; much more inclined to post in the other areas and honestly a little nervous about getting my price right on the backpack I want to sell. I want to make the price fair, and the idea of making an honest mistake there makes me a little nervous because the forum police will be there to check-in on me. This kind of community oversight, essentially people looking out for one another, what's wrong with that? I appreciate it, and really its a major reason why I want to post on the site. I want to sell the pack for a fair price and I want the pack to go to someone who is going to use it and appreciate it. We all have different motivations though and I can understand being intimidated by this kind of post, I just happen to think its a positive force myself.

Lets go back to the case in question.
I am posting this because it appears that many take a stand but miss the details…
Here is the crucial bit :

"My prospective seller tried to sell me the original asking price the original person listed, not including shipping, despite some almost 2 years of having said item . I offered the latter person, 5 dollars less including shipping, "

Does having an item for almost two years still justify using terms like : quick sale, buying in view to selling , GS Trader ????
Re-read that paragraph very carefully and you might just discover some other interesting bits there.

Nevermind, I know that you are all busy so let me help you out :
"Well to be fair to said person, it wasn't a large difference as mentioned before (well i don't know for sure, since i don't know exactly how much they paid because original seller said x amount OR best offer ).

So the OP's rant is based on an assumption and his interpretation of "GS Trader".
Well done.

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Let's be clear, assuming gear is as advertised (accurate description, wear and damage accurately disclosed) you CANNOT get screwed on GS if you choose to agree to a price on gear and purchase at that price. You have no obligation to buy anything. In fact, if you think you got "screwed", you were likely too lazy to do your own due diligence / research, too ignorant about the market value of the item or simply too lazy to shop around or find what you deem a "better" deal. If there is blame to be placed, you "screwed" yourself.

Again, nobody is being "greedy", nobody is being a "scumbag" if they don't agree on YOUR DEFINITION of a "fair" price …. The reason there is a market for any asset or commodity in the first place is because value / price is highly subjective and driven my many, many different variables. You get to vote with your dollars, that's it. You can whine, be judgmental and call people names, but that's on you.

You may say the seller is being a "greedy scumbag" for not bringing their price lower and they may say you're an "ignorant dipshit" for not understanding or agreeing with their assessment of the "true value" of the item … in either case, you're both making subjective judgments that accomplish nothing, possibly based on unrealistic ideals of how value is assessed and ignoring the reality of how the market you're participating in works.

Now stop screwing me over and go buy my Hexamid in GS you greedy dicks, it's a great deal, says I!

"I think what you meant was that people should be able to offer to sell a thing they own for whatever price they want. Nobody has any inherent right to sell anything for whatever they want. That could get ridiculous."

Err, right obviously no one is guaranteed a sale no matter how high or low the price is.

But I feel you are just picking hairs with my wording there.

Haha Trace, good luck on your sale, but I don't think this thread is screwing you, consider it a plug because you are a regular poster right? I'm sure you've got a fair price posted :)

And yes, you describe the situation accurately, I just don't think it's the best way we could be doing things, but in the end it is the way we do things. As you've pointed out in your argument, getting "screwed" is an entirely subjective way to describe a deal gone bad on GS. If we live in a world where people are content going about their daily lives calling each other "greedy scumbags" (my fault as Stephen pointed out) and "ignorant dipshits" then yes, you can't get "screwed" because it all rests on personal responsibility. But, if you have a problem with the idea of buying low on BPL, marking up, then reselling to other BPL members on the same forum (I do personally) and getting offended or annoyed when someone bargains in the way Justin did, and if you don't want BPL gear swap to turn into another Ebay, then I would argue you certainly can get "screwed". It's subjective.
I don't adhere to the idea that "the market will solve it" but that is just a reflection of my personal political bias and nothing more. I'm more interested in hearing people's perspectives on the issue because in the end while Greg and I might refuse to sell to a GS trader, I certainly don't expect others to do the same, and maybe somebody will say something that changes my perspective for the better. For example, at first I was feeling vitriolic when I heard Justin's account, but after reading some comments like Sumi's, I now agree that it was going too far to confront the guy, and I agree with you that ultimately the OP (and everyone on GS for that matter) has a choice to just move on. So thank you. But I'll say that a major reason why GS attracts me, and not Ebay, is the idea (albeit a potentially naive one as Katharina pointed out) that the BPL community (and thinking larger ultimately) could be a place where we don't take advantage of the "ignorant dipshits" out there because we can, but rather sell our gear at a fair price to someone who really wants and needs the gear because we buy and sell the gear to do what we are passionate about, getting outside.

I agree Justin, chaff it

"But I feel you are just picking hairs with my wording there."

Matthew, your written words were just plain misleading.

–B.G.–

"I'll say that a major reason why GS attracts me, and not Ebay, is the idea (albeit a potentially naive one as Katharina pointed out) that the BPL community (and thinking larger ultimately) could be a place where we don't take advantage of the "ignorant dipshits" out there because we can, but rather sell our gear at a fair price to someone who really wants and needs the gear because we buy and sell the gear to do what we are passionate about, getting outside."

Totally agree

"why did you feel more comfortable to post gear on GS before posting in the other forums? I find myself in the opposite situation; much more inclined to post in the other areas and honestly a little nervous about getting my price right on the backpack I want to sell. I want to make the price fair, and the idea of making an honest mistake there makes me a little nervous because the forum police will be there to check-in on me."

For me gear swap is super easy. You just post a price, a description, and some pictures. You're not really putting yourself out there. At least that's how I perceive it, which is why I was more comfortable posting on GS before venturing into other parts of the forum. I'm not concerned about anyone criticizing my price. If I put up a backpack or whatever for a certain price and no one wants, I'll just keep it or reduce the price.

As for "policing" GS posts, it seems to me if someone wants to post an item for a million dollars or whatever, let em do it. No one's going to buy it if the price is too high. On the other hand, now that I think about it, there have been times where I've been looking at items and they seem overpriced, sometimes even at a higher price than buying new and I've wanted to make a comment like "FYI buyers that's only $10 bucks less than buying new" or "FYI this same item is being sold for new at this site for less money". But I'm not sure that'd be my place. And in fact I myself have accidentally posted things for a higher price than they could be bought new elsewhere. It's hard to know every single price out there when there's so many outdoor gear retailers. In any case I would think overpricing is usually self correcting as no one will buy the item then the seller will reduce the price accordingly… so no need for policing at least when it comes to price.

However, I would support people chiming in to let potential buyers know that an item is being sold elsewhere for a better or comparable price, as long as they're not like "OP is a deceptive mercenary"… it's just adding more info to the market and as a potential buyer I would certainly appreciate it. Maybe that's what was meant by "policing" so sorry If just went on a off-topic "diatribe" hahaha. Dunno what others think.

I love pressure questions, haha.

To answer you're question, I would not partake in this practice because it is still a small community, with pretty good transparency. I don't prefer to have that kind of reputation. That being said if another poster wants to sit on gear swap and hawk for great deals to make 10% or 20% on the back end that's their prerogative. Just because I feel reticent doesn't mean its entirely immoral.

Consider also that each buyer can somewhat easily search this history and decide with which sellers to do business. Its part of the due diligence of being an informed consumer to know what you're buying and if what you're paying is fair.

You might find what poster X is doing to be a vile practice, and that's fine. All you have to do is wait for a similar item to come along next week, or put out a WTB post and skip over that person's offer should they approach you.

Again, I think purchasing outside of this community and then selling into this community is a different animal entirely. But the reputation I could get for taking away an opportunity from another potential buyer who would actually benefit from the use of a product is not worth the modest profit I could make when dealing wholly within BPL. Others may feel differently on the subject, and that's fine too.

Thanks Mark for the reply. You wrote, "But the reputation I could get for taking away an opportunity from another potential buyer who would actually benefit from the use of a product is not worth the modest profit I could make when dealing wholly within BPL."

I totally agree, the issue with people who ONLY frequent GS and are there ONLY to make a profit (no intention to be involved in the actual community that exists at BPL) is that they wouldn't face the same communal humiliation you speak of. If what they did was really disgusting they might be ostracized (or banned by the moderators) but if they are just making $25 dollars here and there (and there's no rule against that) no one is going to be up in arms about that. The general consensus I gather so far is that BPLers don't care about these people, and that's their opinion. I would just get a lot more satisfaction and comfort as a buyer and seller if GS maintained its communal environment rather than going the more impersonal direction of the Ebay model.

Stephen's idea was very interesting too. More info can be a good thing. Another reason why gear swap at BPL attracts though is that there is a wide selection of lightly used cottage manufactured gear. Cottage gear is rarely put on sale, so the likelihood of the new gear being available for just $10 more from the cottage company themselves is highly unlikely. It's hard to spin a price on a piece of cottage gear, and even more difficult to do that in this community of gear heads. But I wonder if this will hold true as more big manufacturers jump into the ultralight market and their products ultimately gain popularity amongst members here. Will these products flood GS? Will local cottage manufacturers be hurt? Probably, but I hope not. This is getting off topic though, Sorry.

BTW, how does this thread get moved to Chaff as Justin mentioned?

“BTW, how does this thread get moved to Chaff as Justin mentioned?”

Threads can’t be “Moved”. But you can “continue on” in This Thread , already underway.

I really do not get the premise of this whole thread.

The question in the OP was about ethical conduct. If someone bought something nearly new in January 2013 for $100 and then tried to sell it in March 2013 still in nearly new condition for $120, why is that unethical? Maybe it is bad judgment or a bit of economic concupiscence.

Anyone who thinks $120 is too high is free not to buy it. If the made false claims about its condition or features, that would be a different issue.

When people start offering to pay more for an item to prevent someone from taking too much of a loss I'll be more impressed with the "community" argument. Until then it just seems like an attempt to pressure sellers to take less than the value of an item.

"When people start offering to pay more for an item to prevent someone from taking too much of a loss I'll be more impressed with the "community" argument. Until then it just seems like an attempt to pressure sellers to take less than the value of an item."

Regarding community, well i guess i disagree. Guess you haven't seen all the nice things that people here have done for others in the name and sense of community here.

Some examples, i was selling a bunch of down jackets and vests here once. A member here bought them all, told me to donate them to a homeless shelter, minus one vest whom they asked me to send it to the one person who had shown interest at that point. This was very touching and moving to me, to the point that i teared up.

Or the free things i have sent to people, sometimes asking for the price of shipping and sometimes not.

There are other examples of such community type things that have taken place here that i've seen others mentioned.

It is these kinds of things which are creative and constructive in their very essence, and to me speak much about community.