new SMD packs

Backpacks aren't smartphones – they don't need to be reinvented every 24 months. I think it's great that Ron is questioning the relationship between cottage manufacturers and the market.

I was impressed with the suspension of both of Ron's pack designs at GGG. The heritage from Brian's ULA packs is clearly there, but in a more refined package that I expect will carry very well. I wasn't crazy about the features of the main pack bag, which seemed small for how burly the suspension is. But that comment fits in perfectly with Ron's goal to market to a broader audience and that BPL is not necessarily the target market. I would certainly buy Ron's pack before any other by one of the major manufacturers, but for now I'm sticking with my Ohm.

I did not mean to say different as in different/new, but rather different for SMD (or any other retailer).

You make the same point I was trying to make, this pack is nothing new, and if you are trying to push into retail to show the world your packs, why are you doing packs the rest of the world is already doing. I just don't see how you can push into that market and compete with the big companies, good luck, I just don't see it. It's like trying to open a fast food burger joint in between McD's and Burger King.

"In order to help spread the benefits of UL hiking to the 99 percent of the market that has no desire to become gear geeks, it’s imperative that we begin to develop products that address their needs. Should the benefits of lightweight hiking only be bestowed on those willing to get a PHD in the UL Black Arts? I don’t think so. I think lightweight backpacking should be available to everyone."

The benefits of UL have indeed made it to the 99% IMO. Look at the average weight of commercial gear from 10-15 years ago and compare that with today, I can not think of a scenario where this is not the case. One can easily get a baseweight in the 12-15# range going to REI these days. If you want to go retail, that's all good, but I am not seeing where that is going to benefit the masses any more than it already has. Are you going to be producing shelters in compliance with CPAI-84 (established 1995-that most ul tentmakers do not adhere) as well? That is going to add weight, putting your gear in line with the massed produced stuff you are trying to benefit?

I have used your lunar duo and solo, if you sell those retail you can't use the current fabric as it is now, no? What about Cuben for tents, that's out too, right?

"What about Cuben for tents, that's out too, right?"
Actually, the Ultra-fabric that Terra Nova uses, is just their name for Cuben.

Terra Nova is in England. CPAI-84 is voluntary but adopted by states such as California, New York, New Jersey, Mich., LA, Mass., Minn. It is in regards to flame resistant materials, the materials need to meet the standards, the "rolled goods", the tent does not, in other words, most of the sylnylon and cuben UL tentmakers use, does not meet the standard, so the cottage gear makers are breaking the law when they ship to the states that have adopted the standard (this includes terra nova).

Not a big deal for the cottage gear maker, but if you are pushing into retail, no way REI is going to let you sell it there.

Well, I guess that is quite easily overcome. Chains can state that stores in states where CPAI-84 is into force, do not stock shelters that are non-compliant to CPAI-84 or stores can state that they not ship certain shelters to CPAI-84 states (that already happens).

I always appreciate hearing from the Owners and Designers and I understand and respect Ron's comments. While I don't think his new products will be of interest to me, I understand his points even while I am personally disappointed in the direction SMD is going.

However, I do take issue with Ron's dangerous comments about wanting to expose the masses to UL. I believe, as a community, we must fanatically and jealously guard the dark arts of UL and SUL packing from the uninitiated masses. If UL and SUL becomes more available and easily attainable without the suffering and expense many of us went through to to shed dozens of pounds off our base weight, where will our haughty air of superiority and virtue go? How can I smile and knowingly shake my head in dismay at heavily haulers laboring up steep switch backs if they have lightened their loads? How will I be able to pass judgement on their ignorance and slavish devotion to heavy and expensive retail packs, tents and bags? Where will the high priests and priestesses of SUL go to work their minimalist magic while cloaked in cuben vestments, waving titanium talismans and uttering "full skin out" over and over again? Good god, what will happen to all of the UL blogs? Beware and take heed SMD, you just might get what you are asking for.

> I always appreciate hearing from the Owners and Designers and I understand and respect Ron's comments. While I don't think his new products will be of interest to me, I understand his points even while I am personally disappointed in the direction SMD is going. <

It's a bit premature to make too much speculation as to the new packs at the moment. Too few of the actual details of the pack have been posted to this forum. Nor is this the right place or time to do so.

We have two lines of packs, Fusion and Flight. The pictures posted thus far are for the flight.

Most of the design work over the last 18 months was on Fusion pack line. There is some significant technology incorporated into these packs. This technology will impact how we'll design packs in the future. We will be releasing full details and photos of the packs by mid-February when we get the final production prototypes.

Ed, thanks for the laugh…I couldn't agree more.

I enjoy my superiority and holier-than-thou attitude I take with me instead of heavy gear. We must not share. SMD, shame on you…..

Now…how do I get my hands on that sweet cuben haven from the GGG?

Jen, maybe if you and I put in a group order for two Havens ;~)…I confess I have been looking longingly at them for quite some time now.

Thanks for your insight Ron. It's refreshing to see. I look forward to learning more about the Fusion line.

My hope is for something in the 60L range that can comfortably carry 40+lbs if need be, but still scale down for lighter and smaller loads. There's just not much out there for those of us in the transition phase of going lighter. Even if the Fusion packs don't do that, I appreciate the thought behind them.

Smart move on Ron's part in my opinion. Looks like two things are going on. First they want to expand past the UL niche market. Good idea because the UL market isn't going to grow dramatically any time soon.
Second within the UL niche market they probably need to set themselves apart. SMD's old packs were probably not that competitive. I'm not saying they were bad, just that lots of other pack makers offered fairly similar products. If you want to remain competitive in that market you need to be different in some way.
It will be interesting to see who beyond the BPL community picks up on this. I wonder if the Flight might have some appeal to adventure racers types for example. I was rather surprised when an adventure racing friend of mine had little knowledge of UL gear or companies.

Thanks for the pics Ron,

It looks pretty good for running, I will be definately be watching the roll out and trying get out to try one on.

I've been awaiting these packs since I tried on the prototype at the GGG a year ago. I'm eager to see the 50-liter pack.

If you're interested in other packs designed for running and fast adventure, (and what may be competing with these Flight packs from SMD), look at products offered by Ultimate Direction.

They've been working with some of the big names in the ultra running community – Scott Jurek, Anton Krupicka, and Peter Bakwin.

I'm not an ultra runner, but I did run a 50K Trail "ultra" about 3 years ago. I don't own any Ultimate Direction packs. I follow Scott Jurek and "Tony" Krupicka on FB because it's interesting to see what they are doing. Tony does some crazy stuff. He's running up and down mountain peaks that most people might take a day or two to summit.
https://vimeo.com/ondemand/inthehighcountry/58457574

Like the flight series, the Ultimate Direction packs have a "vest" configuration up front with pockets for sport bottles, Gu's, etc. The pack capacities on the Ultimate Direction products are much lower than these SMD packs. I think their biggest is 11L for the PB Adventure Vest 2.0.

From my perspective, SMD's Flight series would be interesting for longer, expedition style Adventure Racing type activities, or fast packing. I've already attached a bottle holder pocket to the front of my Granite Gear Blaze AC 60 pack. I like having my bottle there, and I can see where the "vest" like design inspiration comes from. I've done adventure races, but only short, 6-10 hour sprints. During those, I learned that it's great to have a bottle with something like a "Hammer" brand endurance mix in it, plus a 90oz hydration bladder for water.

i don't see the criticism- the packs look very good. 8oz packs don't seem to offer anything but low weight-little support & they have no shape when loaded. The flight series looks very good & I would definitely look at either the larger Flight or smaller Fusion pack. I have liked my SMD Traveler as well as my Mountainsmith ghost & Mountainlight 5000 and the MLD Burn. Each has its uses- the large mountainsmith was great when hauling gear for when my sons where small-not a problem anymore (in fact I threaten to strap a frig on the larger ones when hiking now). A good suspension system may make the weight feel lighter & more comfortable & will more than "pay" for itelf in weight when backpacking long distances. Ultralight should not only be about absolute weight but about comfort as well- we should not be penny wise & pound foolish. I buy ultralight gear to enhance my enjoyment & comfort- not to merely be a gram weenie.

"I buy ultralight gear to enhance my enjoyment & comfort- not to merely be a gram weenie."
+5

"I buy ultralight gear to enhance my enjoyment & comfort- not to merely be a gram weenie."
+10.

I use a Osprey Kestrel, because it's the most comfortable or best fit to my back.
The way I use my pack now is for pretty long (40~50Km) days with little stopping, carrying food and water in z packs shoulder pockets so that I don't have to go in and out of my pack all the time.

I'm very much interested in these new designs. Seems like they target runners or fast hikers and am very curious about how they ride your back. The back curving away like that for ventilation seems like a good idea for that purpose, my question would be how well they move with you when bumping around on the trail. I.e. does that not introduce (small) side swaying movements?
Would love to test one out.

Looking forward to see more about them.

"I buy ultralight gear to enhance my enjoyment & comfort- not to merely be a gram weenie."
+15

I love the new packs and can't wait to learn more. For all the gear that I buy, use, exchange, sell, upgrade; only one piece of gear has remained constant and in my pack every single time I go out, and that's my SMD Gatewood. I have a lot of respect for the work SMD does.

Speaking of not being a gram weenie…….Ron, can a brother get a cuben gatewood?!

OK count me in on the cuben gatewood- so I am a gram weenie

+2 I also want a Cuben gatewood. Would love to buy it from SMD, but might MYOG if its not in the R+D pipeline.

Any custom orders being made by the state-side portion of SMD seamsters?

I am so excited about this. I love using "vest packs" and have been looking for a larger volume vest for self supported multi day runs. I really like SMD and I'll definitely be ordering at least one of these new packs. It's going to have to wait until after my next thru this summer, but I'm very, very impressed from what I've seen so far. I can see how these wouldn't be of interest to some people, but for others… wow! (BTW… CF Gatewood! Please!)

I know its stupid to gossip and speculate based on this little info, but thats what you guys get, Ron for rolling something so promising looking out so slowly…. :)

After seeing the harness system, I'm definitely eager to try one of these out. Hope there's something to fit my longish torso.

Myself, I hope to get out and do some trips where I'm running more than half my mileage, but generally having a pack with an active suspension that moves with the user is beneficial to about any sort of backcountry travel I can think of. This is especially true going off trail, skiing or scrambling/climbing, but even for long miles on trail, its just more comfortable. Most belts that transfer the weight well tend to act like a vice grips on your hips, and its rare to find shoulder straps that don't constrict arm movement, and backpanels that don't limit torso movement etc. etc. etc. This is the reason Ray Jardine recommends not using a hipbelt even up to 20lbs. With lighter loads, I tend to only use the hipbelt to help stabilize the load. I'm still figuring out what I like for running, but I think when you're running with a multi-day load, it feels better to have the weight spread evenly, and close to your center of gravity, rather than cinched up tight around your back and chest, so the a supportive (and flexible) belt is desirable.

Looking forward to these packs. Now, if they only had a good ski carry!

Official information released

http://www.sixmoondesigns.com/smdnews/152-flight-backpacks.html

I looked at the official posting for the two new "Flight" series packs. The Flight 30, a 15oz 1900 cu in pack is just too heavy for me and will likely be for anyone aiming for anything approaching SUL base weight. For my hiking purposes the vest harness is also plain gimmicky. My Zimmerbuilt Quickstep is the same volume, is 9.4oz and, fully loaded with my SUL kit, it is almost like I am not wearing a pack. I can add a pack lid and two shoulder pouches and still be a couple ounces lighter then the Flight 30 with plenty of organization and storage.

The Flight 40, at 2600 cu in and 31 oz, is pretty heavy for my taste. For comparison, it is 3oz heavier then the HMG Windrider 2400. I do like that it can be stripped down to 18oz, but that is still pretty heavy for a UL pack with 2600 cu in of volume.

I see the "gram weenie" bashing and all this talk of "comfort." I have found less weight has corresponded to more comfort for me, not less. Back in my 20's, when I was heavy hauler, my Dana Designs Arcflex Terraplane could make 50 lbs ride comfortably. However, it was still 50 lbs freaking pounds, no matter how well distributed and padded the weight was. I have never been uncomfortable with my frameless packs. With a GG Nighlight in the pad sleeve of my Mariposa, with a properly packed and distributed load, I have never had a problem even well into the mid 20 pound range. I have found just the opposite in fact, I have never hiked as comfortably or as far in my life when I have gotten my base weight down. If I ever need to haul gallons of water for days, moose hind quarters, or gold mining equipment I will reconsider.

I won't be following the herd to heavier packs, even if that is where the market is lumbering. I re-read Ron's blog post about the "death of ultralight" and maybe he just doing his part and making some money along the way. I wish SMD luck. My money is still on UL and SUL. Via La UL Revolucion!