What Dan McHale has to say about UL backpacks

I totally agree Dale. I've seen his packs first-hand and even have had the opportunity to use one. They are great for what they are. Exceptional in fact. The price is high but not unreasonable. A lot of hard work, first-hand experience, and tweaking of his designs have been involved. He has a lot of great info on his site too. My rant is based on the tone of his site, not his product. It's interesting that you point out maybe he is just weeding out flaky customers or something to that effect, I haven't thought of it like that before.

Edward, you'd have to get into "real" adventures, then you'd see the light. Until then you can just frolic (albeit miserably) in your local city park with your flimsy UL pack. When you decide to climb a peak with the big dogs then you might come around to consulting McHale ;)

Gosh, guys, a veritable tempest in a UL titanium teapot. William, I haven't read Dan's site, but I did read the snippets you included above, and I don't get from it what you've gotten from it. Ned, I know you're not a fan of SMD's new packs, but I also don't get from Ron what you seem to get from him.

What I get from both is their philosophy on packs, and some explanation on why they're make/are making the packs they are. As far as Ron, I'm very appreciative that he took time out from his busy schedule to explain, in person, the thought process behind the new packs, why they're going the direction they're going, and what they think of how their design meets current needs. In fact he plainly stated that he knew his packs wouldn't be for everybody without denigrating those who would not choose his packs.

As far as Dan, from the snippets provided above, he's doing the same thing. I don't get a sense of disdain from him for those who would choose lighter packs, or packs other than his, at least not from what you have above. He's passionate about the packs he makes (which is a very good thing!) and speaks with passion about them. I, personally, appreciate that.

I don't have a problem with Ron's/SMD's packs personally, and I wouldn't put his "passion" if that's what you want to call it, on the same level as McHale's. Ron wasn't condescending towards people who are looking for a truly UL backpack. I agree with you that it was cool of him, and Dan too, that they come here and engage themselves with the community here. I totally respect and appreciate it as you do.

If you don't read the condescending and patronizing tone of McHale's site then I don't really know what to say. Agree to disagree I suppose.

>> +1 to William's rant. I had a similar reaction to Ron Moak's explanation of SMD's new, beefier, heavier packs. The central argument goes: more "comfort" (read weight) and more "durability" (read weight) are what is needed.<<

First things first, I'm still a fan of your standard minimalist UL pack. I'll continue to make and carry one for personal use for as long as I continue to hike. Nor do I believe that carrying a UL pack is a miserable experience. I've carried a sub 8oz pack for hundreds of miles with great joy.

I probably won't make any UL packs for mass consumption simply because I think that the market is well covered. But then again I always try to re-frame from saying never.

Over the years I've had the pleasure of working with literally 100's of people on getting the most out of their packs. I'll be doing it again next weekend with a batch of soon to be thru-hikers. I also know that many people have difficulty transitioning into UL gear.

Frankly I've seen too many people trying to carry 40 pounds of crap in a pack scarcely comfortable at 20. I also know that many of the efforts that UL manufactures have undertaken to beef up their packs for better load carry have performed poorly, even my own. The attempt to add structure to a pack for which it was not designed is a recipe for failure.

I've no illusions that we've somehow created the perfect pack. Anymore than I could create the perfect person. But hopefully the efforts of the last 18+ months by Brian and myself will make it easier for some people to travel the back country both lighter and in more comfort. If we can do that, I'll be happy.

William, I didn't get quite the same take-aways from Dan's statements you quoted. But that said, he is strongly opinionated, and I can see how it does come across as condescending to a degree. Dan reminds me very much of Jerry Wiguto, owner of Wiggy's. They are both outspoken on public forums, and their attitude (however you choose to describe it) turns off a lot of people, including some potential customers.

In spite of this, I have a lot of respect for straight shooters. And both men make exceptional products, if that is the type of gear a person needs for their specific uses. I think the problem comes when they try to convert others to their way of thinking, when in fact someone else's product would really work better for a specific role. But let's be honest, that is not an uncommon trait, and the majority of manufacturers who are passionate about their work probably fall into the same category…they may just not be as vocal about it.

I've had a McHale pack (which I since sold to a forum member who will get better use of it than I did). For me, personally, a Kifaru pack is even more comfortable, and happens to cost less.

I'm envious of the UL folks who can be comfortable carrying a minuscule pack, shelter, food, and sleep system. I try to head in that direction, but for me it just won't be a perfect fit. There are too many compromises with comfort that I have to make at camp, to be ultralight on the trail. But thanks to this site and the folks on it, I have cut my overall pack weight nearly in half, while still having plenty of leeway for the creature comforts. I'm happy to be in the "light" category and UL works great for others. HYOH and all that. :)

+1 to Ron's comments. I don't always agree with Ron, but find he offers thoughtful opinions and explanations. I am disappointed in SMD's move to heavier packs. I think that part of the market is covered by the likes of Golite, ULA, HMG, and McHale. Time will tell if that was a smart business move by SMD. Now if SMD would only come out with a cuben Gatewood!

I have two McHales, and for almost every 3 season trip I take with them my base weight is under 10 lbs, which the pundits here say is UL. So these MUST be UL packs. Which, I suppose, is Dan's "rant" about really light packs.

If you can't backpack within the BPL definition of UL with a 4 or 5 lb pack, and you think UL is Nirvana, maybe there are other gear items you need to pare down, or even leave at home. The good thing about my packs is that I can easily carry 10-14 days of food and copious amounts of water. Plus I don't need to worry about a pack failure on the trail. It works for me. YMMV.

I am sure that Dan can, should he want to, build really light packs. But there are reasons (I can guess why — but don't want speak for him) he chooses not to.

Again, we are debating gear ad-nauseum here instead of focusing on our hobby, which is to get outdoors and hike.

Who said, " a pound on the back is like 5 in the mind. " Was that me? Seriously though, the whole UL thing has turned young men into wimps and old guys into people I don't want to deal with.

"Who said, " a pound on the back is like 5 in the mind. " Was that me? Seriously though, the whole UL thing has turned young men into wimps and old guys into people I don't want to deal with."

Best post of the thread!!!

Welcome abored!

Craig, I saw your post about GoPros. I picked up a Hero 3 Black edition last year at Best Buy I'll sell for $200.00. I'm just not into it. I got it to film the motorcycle crash that kills me but lost interest.

"the whole UL thing has turned young men into wimps and old guys into people I don't want to deal with"
Well fair enough but what about the middle-age crowd ?

Young to me is 45! ;>)

"Well fair enough but what about the middle-age crowd ?"

They buy Corvettes.

I knew this thread would go downhill as soon as we got involved. On the plus side I get to call this work.

"They buy Corvettes."

Red ones.

I want Tesla Torque. (but am settling for a used 2003 Honda Civic Hybrid)

Corvette…meet sinkhole.

http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2014/02/watch-corvettes-swallowed-massive-sinkhole-corvette-museum.html

I'm feeling so wimpy right now. How did you become such a man? You aren't related to Chuck Norris are you?

And all I have to look forward to in life is meaningless wandering around in the Gear forum at BPL until I reach middle age when I'll have to buy a red Corvette with money I don't have? Please, just kill me now.

edit: oh, I didn't see the sinkhole pic, definitely kill me now

We could talk about how light gear does not make up for the lack of a fitness program…..or fitness itself…..but you knew that.

"We could talk about how light gear does not make up for the lack of a fitness program…..or fitness itself…..but you knew that."

Second best post of the thread.

"And all I have to look forward to in life is meaningless wandering around in the Gear forum at BPL until I reach middle age when I'll have to buy a red Corvette with money I don't have?"

Get thee from The Temple, wander in the wilderness instead, repent your sins, and maybe you'll return man enough to merit a McHale Pack. It's cheaper than a Corvette and has a better resale value.

I feel so conflicted….so excited my new McHale is almost here. But I'm supposed to crave a red corvette instead? Is that so I can run away faster?

Hey Tom! I was at Cabela's the other day looking at 'gear' and I actually carried a metal detector around for awhile. After awhile I put it back on the shelf, emailed my girlfriend, told her I almost bought one, but was not quite ready for that! I'm slip, slip, slipping away! I think it was just a brief lapse, but a person has to have a plan.

Rick, it's almost done! ;>) Oh, and it's red Tesla.

"I think it was just a brief lapse, but a person has to have a plan."

Don't do it, Dan. You're my role model, and I couldn't bear the thought of watching you wandering around on the banks of Green lake with a metal detector like all those clueless bozos that talk to themselves, and whoop it up when they find a quarter. This whole UL fad'll pass and in a year or so it'll just seem like a bad dream. Honest…

Speaking of cars and packs, call me naive, but I see a correlation. I wouldn't drive an 18-wheeler as my commuter vehicle, anymore than I'd use a Prius for hauling a stack of 3/4" plywood. The article in focus, speaks of not trying to carry 25-30 pounds in a frameless pack. A sub 1 lb job I'm assuming. I agree with that. But I don't necessarily agree with using a 2-3 lb pack for a weekend stroll through the woods with a starting weight under 15 lbs.

I understand the rant, but saying there's no place for frameless UL packs even on a day hike is drifting over the fence to the other side of extreme. At least that's my opinion.

It's funny how "packing" has become a sport unto itself. Before my time, people just rolled up their stuff in a blanket, tied the ends together and slung it over a shoulder. Now it's not about the hike, or the climb, or the ride, or the float… it's about the pack. People go so far as to pack for sport and have never even slept outside. Something or other about Zombies and an Apocalypse. Go figure.

Anyway, I'll continue to try and match my pack with my adventure. I don't believe there's any such thing as a universal pack for all uses.

Edit: 'cuz I never get it right the first time.