Water Repellent Down, One Year In

I have a Zpacks twin quilt with DWR down in it that I got back in August. My wife and I have only used it about 10 nights, so I can't say that I've thoroughly tested it. The only situation I've been in that saw any moisture near the quilt was cowboy camping in a meadow on a 28F night – in the morning the whole shell was covered in frost. In addition, we both pulled the quilt over our faces to stay warm and breathed quite a bit of moisture into the top few baffles. I've done this many times with a non-DWR-down quilt and the top baffle ends up being pretty flat from the moisture. With the DWR down there was no noticeable loss of loft, though you could clearly see beads of water on the inside of the fabric when held up to the light.

Other than the DWR treatment and the slight increase in weight (850 fill treated versus 900 fill untreated), I'm not sure I could tell the difference between DWR and regular down. It's very lofty, no noticeable clumping or other weird behavior, and it compresses about the same. Who knows how it will hold up 10 years from now compared to untreated down, but so far so good. I'm in the process of getting a winter quilt and I'm strongly considering getting one with DWR-treated down.

Hopefully more people will chime in. I have a pound of 850 FP water resistant down from Allied Feather sitting in its original shipping bag, waiting for me to start/finish my quilt so I can use it. Maybe in a year, I'll update my post.. Haha.

Hopefully it's as good as all the hype claims. I put off quite a bit of heat and moisture when I sleep, especially at my feet, so the WR will hopefully keep things lofty.

It's encouraging to hear a fellow Andrew give some positive feedback on it.

I've always wondered if you can wash water repellent down gear just like normal down, or if the treatment precludes normal washing? Or maybe the water repellency is lost once the down is washed?

Anyone have experience with this?

Wow, we're really thin on the reports at this point. As one of my professors liked to say: "When the data's missing, the data's missing."

In a previous thread I was asking about resistant down sweaters, and one of the posters posted a link to this unsettling clumping report about the Patagonia Encapsil Belay Parka:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIaWk0b8Jro

…I found a follow-up report by this guy who said: "Yes, washing by CO2 Nexus restored loft. Through OudoorGearLab testing of many hydrophobic down bags and jackets we are seeing that treated down tends to clump up more and faster than untreated down, which is a drawback for long trips where you can't/don't wash a jacket. But even so, the Encapsil is a phenomenal parka."

It's an interesting report, because there was somewhat of a control group. I really don't see the value of reports of resistant down if there isn't a non-resistant down used as a control.

Here's another more sanguine report by a hunter (but no control):

http://www.rokslide.com/forums/showthread.php?10158-quot-Water-Resistant-quot-Down-tested-to-failure

It sure would be nice :o) if some BPL tester would do a scientific test to see WHICH down DWR teatment is "best".

Patagonia appears to have its own method of applying DWR and maybe this is key to the best down water resistance – or not.

LL Bean uses Dri Down as do some others.

There are just too many variables of shell material, shell DWR treatment, user objectivity, and user environmental conditions to have any true estimate of which down DWRs are best from owner reports.

Would I pay more for Patagucci's DWR down if it was tested clearly superior by a wide margin? Yep!

But, OTOH, if testing showed little difference between treatments then I'd go for the garment that suited my needs best.

With a technology this new I feel that I can safely predict even more improvements in down DWR.

Max Neale again:

"Our preliminary field testing has shown that treated down is not a substitute for synthetic insulation in wet conditions. Testing by one well respected company (that prefers not to be named) has shown a negligible difference between treated an untreated down in real world experiments, such as if the bag gets soaked, perhaps during a river crossing, does it dry faster and re-loft faster? Their testing suggests that it does not. Another concern is durability. Down is extremely durable: it's able to withstand hundreds of compressions, wide swings in temperatures, and proper washing restores twenty and even thirty year old down close to its original performance. We aim to test treated and untreated down side by side in sleepings bags and jackets over the long-term (and then test the down fill power) to see if treated down reduces durability. OutdoorGearLab is also in the process of developing quantitative tests through dummy skin temp probes and thermal imaging that will compare the insulation values of treated and untreated down."

http://www.outdoorgearlab.com/Backpacking-Sleeping-Bag-Reviews/buying-advice

Interesting photos of treated down after a spray with water, here:

http://www.outdoorgearlab.com/Down-Jacket-Womens-Reviews/buying-advice

I found a Gnarlite jacket on sale in late 2012. This is my first sweater type jacket; only comparison would be an old NF Nuptse jacket I inherited, some 12 years ago. The Nuptse as it happens is still doing quite well, and was never properly cared for. Got soaked in rain/snow countless times, always seemed to stay puffy.

I wore the Gnarlite for nearly 3 months, often allowing it to get wet by both rain and sweat, prior to washing it for the 1st time.

I then followed the cleaning instructions to a "T." It has never returned to the same loft as when new. I suppose failing to clean it regularly may have done it…

Prior to that 1st wash though – it didnt appear to get clumpy or otherwise lose its loft, even in that heavy wet Georgian Bay snow in February. The shell certainly lost its DWR quick.

We have 2 double quilts, a 20 degree with water-repellent down and a 40 degree with standard down. The 20 degree has 29 nights on it and the 40 degree has 16 nights.
We usually sleep with an open tent (Hexamid or Duplex). Some nights when there is a heavy dew, we wake to water on the surface of everything in the tent. The 20 degree has never suffered noticeable loss of loft but neither has the 40 degree. The moisture has never penetrated the shell DWR. So, I don't think the water repellent properties of the down have been tested and I suspect that it's the same for most users. The Water repellent down might prove useful in an emergency, but in general use, I think the DWR of the shell is much more important (in a sleeping bag/quilt).
We haven't had problems with clumping yet, but if I were buying again, I wouldn't bother with water repellent down in a bag.

To fluff up down, just put the garment in a dryer with three tennis balls bouncing around. The tennis balls break up any clumps and fluff up the down.

Though one year out is probably not long enough to say much, since nobody has brought it up yet, I will. The reason why I will not consider touching the stuff at the moment is that at least one reputable tester I read brought up questions of the effect the treatment might have on the longevity of the down. So one thing to look for over time might be breakdown of the down.

I think I may have written words to the same effect before on another thread, but I lacked any source material to cite, so I'll repeat this…

I wouldn't be surprised if Patagonia's DWR (and Rab's Nikwax-based treatment too) under-performs some rival technologies in regard to clumping and what you might call "interlaundering longevity."

This is because of these DWR's silicone chemistry. Silicone DWR may be more environmentally friendly than any fluorine based DWR, but they don't provide the wide benefits of their Fluorinated rivals, especially in oleophobic and self-cleaning effects. With down this is especially important, as it's oils and dirt that severely contribute to clumping effects.

This was mentioned in presentation I attended – see the PDF link: http://www.performancedays.eu/regulatory-affairs-the-challenge-pfoa-free.html

The issue in question is highlighted on the chart on page 14 of the PDF.

Fluorinated DWRs on linings will help avoid oil contamination from sweat (you could apply this yourself), as would the light coatings that are used on many of the super-light nylon rip-stops and taffetas.

Oliver

"I wouldn't be surprised if Patagonia's DWR (and Rab's Nikwax-based treatment too) under-performs some rival technologies in regard to clumping and what you might call "interlaundering longevity."

This is because of these DWR's silicone chemistry."
Euh, Nixwax is wax-based, not silicone.

Just as a note, I had called DownTek in the early fall of last year asking about the longevity of their product. I was told that the DWR coating on the down only lasts about 10-20 washes depending.

And that's from the manufacturer…which usually means, best case scenario.

Oliver is correct about Nikwax underperformance all the same: "Niwax has a DWR (wax-elastomer base) that is sprayed on and doesn't need to be heat set. It is more environmental friendly but it will only last about 1/2 as long a fluorocarbon-based DWR at the same concentration….Wax is the least durable, then silicone, then fluorocarbons. Fluorcarbons have the added benefit of repelling both oils and water." (R Nisley)

This makes me think twice about buying the Ghost Whisperer I was about purchase.

"Just as a note, I had called DownTek in the early fall of last year asking about the longevity of their product. I was told that the DWR coating on the down only lasts about 10-20 washes depending."

'only' 10 – 20 washes !!??

I've used down bags and jackets in the outdoors for about 40 years… I can't recall ever washing any item even 5 times.

I suppose if you sweat a lot and wear your down next to your skin it may be necessary to wash often.

In my case down is mostly only used in camp in the evening. And I hike in cool mountain climates. I always have other layers under the down and sweat/stink just does not get to the down. In my bag I wear clothing at night so again, the sweat and stink does not get to the down. I also wash up every evening in camp before putting on the down or getting into the bag… at least in summer.
My bag did need cleaning after 3 weeks on McKinley though… with not one bath!

Billy

Assuming 10 washes is the max life, that means the DWR would last 10 to 15 years for my bags and jackets. I can't complain much about that timeframe. Even after it washes out, in theory you still have a high quality down bag….All this assumes the DWR does what it claims and is worth having in the first place.

Ryan

As of now I will only buy down garments that are factory DWR treated.

It doesn't make sense to me to buy untreated down garments any more.

I have done my best to protect my WM Megalite bag and EB down jacket with Revivex spray-on DWR but that only goes so far. Having both shell DWR AND down DWR makes the most sense.

I also have concerns about long term use of DWR down. The good news is that almost everybody have a long term test of untreated down. In my experience, untreated down has preformed perfectly. My understanding is that treated down has had the natural oils stripped from them to apply the DWR treatment. So, if untreated down lasts decades, and treated down only lasts several washings, you won't find me buying any treated down if there is an untreated option. Nothing man has done has surpassed down yet, and I don't expect it will any time soon.

I am going to take a wait and see approach. Having just layed down five bills for another new quilt, I didn't even hesitate checking the 900 fill non treated down box.

I have to say, this thread is making me feel a lot better about not being able to afford a nice WR down jacket and quilt right now. It'll save me money down the road too, since EE's untreated duck down is half the price of their 850 fill DownTek, Looks like there's no good reason to save up an extra $200 before getting a quilt.

My favorite thing about this thread, is learning that I wash my down gear as rarely as the next guy. Sleeping bag – every two to three years. Jacket – maybe once a year; maybe every other. I do go to great lengths to keep these things clean, though. I rarely get in a bag without a wash and a change first. And the jackets as someone else mentioned usually go on at night. I try really hard to keep urban and trail down puffies separate too. I usually succeed.

>> real world experiments, such as if the bag gets soaked

That is an interesting scenario, but I really don't care that much about it. What I care about is if it gets damp, not soaking wet. For example, if I'm out on a week long trip, and it is rainy and foggy every day (where I'm essentially in a cloud), how well does the bag work? Should I just carry a synthetic bag instead? The same goes for a jacket, where one of the big concerns is sweat.

It appears that the manufacturers are claiming an increased loft for treated down over the same down untreated, i.e. an untreated 800 down is 900 down after treatment. I wonder how long this increased loft lasts in the real world.