1000 Island Lake in winter

[Doug Smith]

Thanks Bob, the ski hut idea is outstanding. Tahoe is much easier for me to get to in winter than Yosemite, so I'm glad that there are more huts available there. As we mentioned earlier, Peter Grubb hut is not far off the beaten path from Boreal. Boreal also has that gear Nordic ski area behind it that would be easy access for practicing the basics.

I checked out the Sierra Club websites for a couple different regions last night. I couldn't find any of them listing ski tour dates or plans…it seemed most of the site was dedicated to environmental protection (which I understand is their focus). I'm a little concerned that might not be the right fit for me as far as joining a club. Don't get me wrong, I believe in "tread lightly" and protecting the environment, but my mindset and attitudes are a lot more conservative than many people I know in similar groups. I'll have to do some research on if there are other organized groups that do outings to the ski huts as well.

I plan on doing this a little at a time. To being with I'm just going to do a couple overnighter snow camping runs. We have a family vacation in the planning stages for Tahoe or Mammoth in January/ February, so I'll get a night or two in camping while the wife and kids are at the hotel/ cabin. ;-)

I drove Tioga Pass recently and I can't imagine doing those first 5 miles or so to the entrance of the park from Lee Vining…WOW, that looks like it would be a workout going up and scary coming down. Haha

[Bob Gross]

Yes, the Sierra Club means different things to different people. There are many members who are environmental activists. Then there are the rest of us who are just outdoors people, and we don't get involved so much in the politics. Within the Sierra Club, there are local geographic chapters. For example, one chapter covers San Mateo, Santa Clara, and San Benito counties. Within each chapter, there are some of the activists, and then also there are activity groups. For examples, there is a Ski Touring Section, a Backpacking Section, etc. You just need to get hooked up with the correct bunch of people, both by geography and by ideology.

"I drove Tioga Pass recently and I can't imagine doing those first 5 miles or so to the entrance of the park…WOW, that looks like it would be a workout going up and scary coming down."

Well, I'm not sure where you are going or coming. On the last trip, we drove from Lee Vining west to the gate and parked. We went from there up to Tioga Pass Resort for an overnight, then on up to the pass and down to Tuolumne Meadows for a couple of nights. Absolutely none of that route had any problem except for some hideous exposure if you got too close to the cliff edge. The TPR staff hauled our overnight packs up by snowmobile. Alas, TPR closed for winter operations, I believe, although that might change.

The entrance office to the Tuolumne Meadows car campground becomes the winter ski hut. At the last time that I checked, it was free, first come first served. There is a large steel shipping container behind there, and it is for food storage. So, skiers will drive several days worth of winter food up there in September or October and lock it up. When they come skiing along in March, the food is waiting for them. That will lighten your pack a lot, which is what we are about here.

Besides, it is great to wander around Tuolumne Meadows on skis as you follow animal tracks in the snow. In fact, two NPS rangers spend the winter there, and they report on tracks and animal sightings.

–B.G.–

[Doug Smith]

Thanks for the added info on the Sierra Club. And I did finally find a website of theirs that gives great info on the ski huts.

I think I am a bit confused about Tioga Pass from the Lee Vining side, since I've never been there in winter. I assumed the pass was closed to vehicles right at Hwy 395. Can you actually drive up to near the Park entrance even in winter? I was talking about the 4,000' elevation gain slog from the intersection of Hwy 395. Now I think I'm following you that the road is open, even in winter, to the resort?

[Bob Gross]

"a stem christy?"

Billy asked about ski turns, although these apply more for downhill skiers than cross country skiers. Some people can do a stem christy. Others do a royal christie.

All I ever managed to do was a pine christie.

That is when you reach up and grab a pine branch and swing your turn around it.

–B.G.–

[Bob Gross]

"I think I am a bit confused about Tioga Pass from the Lee Vining side, since I've never been there in winter."

Starting from the intersection of US 395 and CA 120 near Lee Vining, you can drive west about three or four miles until you get to the locked gate. There, you park. Often the pavement is snow-free on the other side, but it can just as easily be covered in snow. From the gate, it is all uphill to TPR, which sits about one mile from the park entrance. At the actual Tioga Pass entrance station, there is another more massive gate.

Several years ago, TPR was the only commerical entity between those two gates, and it had permission to keep one or two snowmobiles and one 4WD vehicle. So, depending on where the snow line was, they had something to haul heavy packs.

Skiing down that steep area of unplowed road was quite exciting. Uphill, not so much.

–B.G.–

[Billy Ray]

Doug,
There are lots of choices in skis. All skis are a compromise as none will be 'just right' for all conditions you will encounter.

The skinniest, least powerful ski/boot combo I would use if I were doing the trip would be the Madshus Eon with a boot like the Fisher BCX6. I believe you can rent the Eons at Alpenglow Sports in Tahoe City. Problem is they only rent whimpy NNN BC boots. Though they might rent a plastic telemark boot with them. Brendan is the owner… nice guy.
http://alpenglowsports.com/

Tahoe Mountain Sports in King's Beach (north tahoe) might also rent some telemark or backcountry gear… these are nice guys too:

http://www.tahoemountainsports.com/prod_detail_list/snowsports?gclid=CMePr83srrsCFShk7AodjDMAjA

And The Backcountry in Truckee rents both tele or BC gear:
http://www.thebackcountry.net/

Courses: Alpine Skills Institute in Truckee (I believe they are upstairs inside The Backcountry store):
http://www.alpineskills.com/
I see they have a Introduction to Backcountry Skiing Course on Dec 21 and 28 (may at other dates after the holidays too?)
Bela G. Vadasz is the owner. I took a couple of private lessons from he and his wife many years ago that really improved my skiing at the time. They also offer avalanche classes, though I am still partial to Randall Osterhuber's class at http://donnersummitavalancheseminars.com/ (Randall is a good friend of mine… he is a snow scientist who has been running the Donner Summit Snow Lab for the State of CA for about the past 30 years… and tremendous backcountry skier)

I would not rule out a plastic telemark boot for your proposed trip. I think the range of gear you want to be in is from the light end being Madshus Eon w. Fisher BCX6 boot or similar to the more stable Madshus Epoch or Annum with say the Garmont Excursion plastic tele boot or similar. You could also use a plastic tele boot with the Madshus Eon.

I would not recommend doing that trip without learning the turns in my previous post. Even though that trip to 1000 Island Lake is not super hard, there will be some significant ups and downs.

Being able to turn in most or all conditions is super important. Turning is control. Without it you will fall your way down every significant slope. If it's icy… you could fall 500 or even 1,000 feet :(

When I was 17 and got my first car I was really jazzed to hop it up to make it go fast. My step-dad said to me, "Son, (he was trying to convince me to put my paycheck into brakes) there is one thing more important than going fast."
I was stunned. At 17 I couldn't imagine what was more important than looking cool and going fast. So I said, "What's That?" With a smirk and an attitude. He said, "Stopping. What are you going to do if you're going fast and can't stop?." Oh… so I decided to buy brakes.

Well, skiing is a bit the same. Except that stopping is not about your foot on a brake. In skiing your ability to make turns = your ability to stop. If you can't make turns, then the only way you're going to stop on a significant slop is to fall. And once you fall, lots of bad things can happen. (also turning under control allows you to avoid objects :)

So I recommend that you rent some tele or BC skis and take a class. At first take group classes, then go out and practice after the class, the same day and the next day. After you get up to, say, lower intermediate, then I recommend taking a private lesson or two. A private lesson with Bela (or other) at a, are you ready for this? At a downhill resort. Why? Well, when the lift is what's getting you up the slope you can make a TON more turns in a day. And that means a TON more practice. Which means a TON more progress. Unfortunately, it also means a TON more falls… It takes a lot of falling to learn to turn… or, at least it did for me.

Once you master turning on the groomed slopes. The take the lift to the top and ski down parallel to the groomed, but off the groomed. Do it over and over and do it under lots of different conditions: icy, powder, corn snow, breakable crust… That is the ultimate goal, to be able to ski most, if not all conditions…

Anyway, this is a big topic and there is more than one way to skin a cat. But the above is my advice to you Doug. Accomplish the above and you open up the entire Sierra to your winter adventures.

Billy

[Billy Ray]

Oh, Doug… one more thing.

If you don't want to learn to turn skis on ungroomed snow. Then I recommend that you use snowshoes.

Billy

[Doug Smith]

Thanks for the very informative reply, Billy. I appreciate the links to the vendors/ rentals and the classes. I am motivated to learn, as snowshoeing is not something I'm eager to try again.

For the past 20 years I've wanted to get back into cross country skiing again. My wife and kids are showing interest as well, so this seems like a good time to learn.

Two of the links you posted I just heard about a couple hours ago. I called Any Mountain in San Jose, and the very helpful guy in the ski department told me they don't carry back country/ AT/ telemark gear (I wanted to see the difference in person). But he did used to work at a ski shop in Tahoe, and recommended both the Backcountry Store and Alpenglow. So I was pleased to see that you recommended them as well. I saw that on the backcountry store's website, they have rental packages for the whole season. If we can make it up to the mountains a few times this winter that might be a cost effective way to go.

[Billy Ray]

You might also be able to rent telemark gear at Tahoe Donner Down Hill Ski resort. And maybe they have lessons too?

Tahoe Donner has an XC resort at which you can rent regular XC skis and get groomed track lessons.

Tahoe Donner also has a very small Down Hill Resort nearby the XC resort. I rented Telemark gear there two or three years ago. Not sure if they sill rent it or not… but since it's a very small resort the lift passes are cheaper.

I was looking though the ASI (Alpine Skills Institute) web site and it looks like their courses are mostly for people that already know how to ski. You might call them and explain your goal and your beginner status and see if they can recommend someone to give you beginner telemark lessons. Alternatively, you could take downhill lessons at downhill resort, learn the basics of downhill/parallel turns. And then take the telemark course from ASI. I'm excited for you. Good Luck!

Billy

[Bob Gross]

"ASI (Alpine Skills Institute)"

Back around 1985, a friend of mine took beginner lessons from ASI, then skied at Donner Ski Ranch, then took more lessons, etc. She kept that up all season for every weekend. By May, she skied Mount Shasta with a group of us. I was impressed that she was able to pull it together in one season that way. I'm surprised that Bela still runs ASI after all these years.

–B.G.–

[dave e]

"the Sierra Club means different things to different people. There are many members who are environmental activists. "

the sierra clubs raison d etre is political/enviro activism…and its purpose is to get more people involved in the cause otherwise might as well hook up on Meetup.

" Then there are the rest of us who are just outdoors people, and we don't get involved so much in the politics."

As outdoors people doesnt it behoove you to support the outdoors?Or is it enjoying the fruits of others labor while being indifferent to that contribution at the same time?

I ve never understood folks who lament the sc yet enjoy hiking in areas that the sc or similar advocates helped preserve.Bizarre.

[Doug Smith]

Hi Dave, I'd like to keep this thread focused on what I started it as, which is a way to prepare to do a ski trip to 1000 Island Lake in the winter/ spring. Folks offered advice on ways to help me prepare, which I appreciate. Bob, who you quoted, was responding to one of my concerns, and understood what I was asking and gave a helpful reply. Both of us kept our comments diplomatic in an effort to not have this thread spiral out of control like so many have since the dawn of internet forums.

I would be happy to address your remarks with my own personal opinion, but I'm not going to, because this thread is meant for a different purpose. No offence meant, I hope you can see where I'm coming from.

[ROBERT TANGEN]

I've had lessons from both of them, and they are extremely professional. I'm not sure that they give lessons themselves anymore, they must be almost as old as I am, but they run a tight ship, even to the point of certifying mountain guides. After Mimi climbed Mt. Everest a few years ago, I think she may have semi-retired. But their employees are the best!

[Billy Ray]

FYI… Mimi and Bela got divorced years ago. I don't believe she is any longer associated with ASI.

It is my understanding that Bela still guides and instructs himself..

Billy

[Charley White]

I have a different view on skiing skill. I love skiing downhill and hope you come to, also. But you don't need to. What you need is to be comfortable moving all around on skis. (upcoming punchline: the on-snow truth of all but a select few athletes under a loaded multiday backpack is there are no fancy turns. Only survival turns.) When I started on wood skis with lignostone (wood) edges and leather slippers, all I could do was looong traverses, stop, kick-turn, repeat. First advanced skill was sideslip. Being able to sideslip and lose 300 vertical on a long traverse was huge. Got from Echo Pass to Sugar Pine Point that way. Nowadays my Excursions and (Madshus Annums) took me from Lake Huntington to Bishop over 7days. Yeah, I can and do turn, but very carefully. Sketchy icy? don't…wait. Sketchy punchable crust? Boot it. If you like to backpack and are comfortable on skis (once called "snowshoes" and ridden straight down with a lurk) go for it.

The key is, don't fall and get hurt. If you can turn descending, safely on every turn without risk of a loaded faceplant, do it. Otherwise, don't.

Unless north Tahoe accomodations are driving you, head first from Monterey to Mountain Adventure Seminars in Bear Valley. Super people, and adjacent nordic center has rentals. Think about outing clubs in various colleges, they seem usually wide open. MPCC, maybe. Lake Tahoe Community College in South Shore had wonderful skiing instruction and winter survival courses in their wilderness studies department. Cheap. Join the yahoo group Snownet and put out an inquiry. It is an outgowth of a UCSF outing club; dormant tripwise, but still an active message center.

You're going to have so much fun.

[Charley White]

Doug,
A few hot links.

Mike Schwartz of aforementioned The Backcountry has good Tahoe info & maps.

http://thebackcountry.net/bb/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1297

Here's snownet
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/SNOWNET/info

Here's Bob Akka's site for when you get into going across and along the Sierra. Wonderful.
http://bobskiing.com/

Marcus Libkind wrote the "second" book(s) on sierra touring. Here's his site.
http://www.backcountryskitours.com/

Dave Beck wrote the "first" sierra xc book & used to run snowcamping seminars north of Carson Pass in Meiss Meadow. Could reach him here. Suspect he does all his instruction out of LTahoeCCollege now, though.

http://sierraskitouring.com/Hope-Valley-California-dog-sledding.htm

New one that looks good.
kickandglide.com

RE 1000 Island Lakes, I would think that up the tramway from June Lake is the easy/short way in. Return via long traverse on the summer trail.

Cheers

[Doug Smith]

Charley, thanks for the links, I'll check them out. I found Mike's site already and have read some pretty cool stuff on it.

Regarding Bear Valley vs Tahoe, according to google maps, it only takes me seven minutes longer to get to Truckee from my place than to Bear valley. It is longer as far as miles are concerned, but I like that it is larger, more open roads moving at higher speeds. I often bring one of my dogs when I go to the mountains as company, and the smoother and straighter I can make the road, the more enjoyable the ride is for her. And as you said, the Tahoe area has a lot more lodging/ eating/ buying options.

I'll give a lot of thought to what you said about turns. I've been reading "Backcountry Skiing" by Martin Volken (first book I came across on the Nook), where he mentions the two different mindsets of backcountry skiing. The first is where the ski is a tool to get to the areas you want to explore. The second is where the ski is a toy, and your goal in the backcountry is to get to good skiing. I'm firmly in the former mindset. My thought is that I'm looking for a faster/ more capable way of traveling in the backcountry than snowshoes. Of course I'm open minded, and I know that if I really start to enjoy the skiing sports, that could change.

[Bob Gross]

"The first is where the ski is a tool to get to the areas you want to explore."

Many of us are basically hikers. In the winter, we go hiking on snow, and we have these long skinny things on our feet to keep us up.

–B.G.–

[Paul McLaughlin]

The way I look at it is you can go into the mountains to ski, or you can ski to get into the mountains. And of course all variations in between. I'm pretty close to the latter end of the spectrum, and it sounds like you expect to be there as well. I've skied across the Sierra and yet I don't think of myself as a skier – I just happen to use skis to get around in the mountains when they are covered by snow.

Charley hits it on the head with the survival skiing. I'll emphasize that it's about safety. When you are three days of skiing from a road, you REALLY don't want to fall and get hurt. So I stay well within my comfort zone. I'm not a very good skier, but I'm not too proud to walk down, so I can get around pretty well. Those who have more skills than I and really enjoy the down often do trips where they ski in to a base camp and then ski the peaks around them unencumbered by the pack – more fun and safer than trying to ski the steeps while laden.

Yes, the better your ski skills are the more places you can go. But there are lots of places you can go that don't require advanced skiing ability.

To me the real key skill for backcountry travel over the snow is navigation – that applies regardless of your mode of travel. Do as much off-trail travel as you can in the summer before you venture out too far on the snow; the habits you need to build are very similar.

All the snow-living skills can be learned close to the road for safety's sake. Load up, get a mile from the road, and make camp. You'll make mistakes, and you'll learn from them, and if you make a really big mistake it's only a mile to the car.

I'll also add to the voices that say spring is the time to go, not winter. I always aim for the end of April/early May. Nice long days, usually quite warm, and great corn snow for skiing. March I would avoid like the plague. March in the Sierra is historically a big month for snowfall. Everything's very pretty with all that fresh snow but you can't get far ploughing a knee-deep trench through it on skis. Most years mid-April is when the serious storms are done. However, if your schedule is very flexible there always seems to be a weather window in February that stays clear and warm for a week or two and you can do some nice trips then – but it's unpredictable and unless you can go at the drop of a hat you can't do it.

But really, it's not that much fun. I mean, who wants to go out into a spectacular mountain range in perfect weather and have it all to themselves for a week or more, gliding along over a silky smooth blanket of sparkling white, knowing that you are enjoying a truly rare privilege to see what you are seeing?

[Doug Smith]

"But really, it's not that much fun. I mean, who wants to go out into a spectacular mountain range in perfect weather and have it all to themselves for a week or more, gliding along over a silky smooth blanket of sparkling white, knowing that you are enjoying a truly rare privilege to see what you are seeing?"

You know, now that you put it like that, I think I might just stick to summer backpacking. ;-)

It sounds like we're all likeminded on this board as far as the reason for skiing in the backcountry. As for winter camping, I already started following your advice last year Paul. :) I went camping in Mammoth just a couple hundred yards off the side of the road. It taught me a lot of valuable lessons as far as gear and techniques were concerned. it opened my eyes to fresh snow as opposed to old snow, and I learned a lot about fire starting, cooking, and keeping water from freezing. It was a very cold and somewhat miserable experience, and I also learned a bit about proper sleeping gear (who would have thought that the pad plays such a key role…haha).

Luckily, what I lack in the ski experience department, I make up for a bit in navigation. I've completed the Army's advanced land nav course at Ft. Hunter Liggett, part of which was at night (no GPS's allowed). At night and in the redwoods, as many of you local guys know, is "navigating by brail" as my buddy used to say, in regards to terrain feature recognition. After 15 years (and counting) on SAR, I've had to become pretty decent on this. Plus, as a K9 handler tracking people in the woods I use nav skills almost weekly. But still, winter and snow will bring a new element to it that I'm excited to learn about. I'm definitely not one of those guys that knows everything about a subject, and I can't wait to learn more.

Avalanche skills are something I know absolutely nothing about (I did just read the recent article here on it). I'm looking forward to getting some training and skills on the subject.

Thanks for all the great tips, links, and advice you guys. Please keep it coming. I'm sure I'm not the only one who appreciates the information and is looking to get into this exciting new hobby.

[jscott]

I'm just starting doing some EASY bc skiing–hardly bc at all. I've been nordic skiing for years and used to downhill a lot. Anyway, the difference between back country skiing and groomed nordic skiing is immense. I got a pair of Madshus Glitterinds on sale last summer and paired them with Rossignol BC 9 boots and a beefier Nordic style binding whose name I'm forgetting right now. This set up is designed for kicking and gliding on easy terrain; works very well! The Glitterinds are very narrow and don't float well but they really glide, almost like a Nordic ski. I'm very pleased with the three trips I've done this winter. However, turning–especially in the trees–can be an adventure. It doesn't take much to start accelerating fast; in trees there isn't room to turn or snowplow. Ice is brutal. Maneuvering around obstacles or even just up simple but narrow tree lined slopes in, say 8 inches of fresh powder can be difficult. Still, I much prefer skis to snowshoes on easy terrain. But for my skill level, snowshoes will rule where steeper tree covered slopes are concerned.

I did manage to negotiate a few tricky tree slopes on my skis. It didn't look pretty, but hey. One can always walk through really tough patches. For day trips I've thought about carrying snow shoes in a pack and then skiing to where the terrain gets steep–leaving the skis and returning to ski out.

[Doug Smith]

Jeffrey, thanks for the comparison. My first and only attempt at snowshoeing was a complete disaster, probably due to the several feet of new snow that fell overnight. Unfortunately it really soured my taste on snowshoes. I felt like if the snow was deep enough that I needed them, they wouldn't support me…And if it was hard or shallow enough to use them, regular boots would do just as well. I know I must be very wrong on those conclusions, or they wouldn't have been in use so long, all over the world.

But even under the best circumstances, I simply can't imagine doing say, a 10 mile hike in one day on snowshoes. That is a long enough distance for me in summer, in boots. Skis on the other hand, if the terrain allows it, I could see getting me the same (or possibly better) mileage as I can make on boots in summer. Ideally I'd like to get to 1000 Island Lake on the first day, make it a base camp, and explore the area day 2, and return on day 3. The lake alone is roughly 11 miles from the starting point, depending on which route you take.

[ROBERT TANGEN]

This was on their web-site as of 12-16-2013:
ASI Directors:
Mimi Maki-Vadasz
ASI Co-Founder
ASI Adminisrative Director
ASI Rock Guide
ASI Alpine Guide
ASI Ski Mountaineering Guide
AMGA Ski Mountaineering Guide Certified
PSIA Level II Nordic & Alpine Certified
AIARE Avalanche Level 3 Certified
OEC & CPR Certified
Mt. Everest Summiteer 2003
Bela G. Vadasz
ASI Co-Founder
ASI Technical Director
IFMGA Internationally Licensed Mountain Guide
AMGA Ski Discipline Coordinator
AMGA Ski & Alpine Instructor/Examiner
AMGA Technical Committee Member
AMGA Lifetime Acheivement Award 2008
PSIA Level III Nordic & Alpine Certified
AIARE Avalanche Level 3 Course Instructor
AIARE Education Committee member
WFR & CPR Certified

[Author]

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