high Exertion Winter Layering

The quality of my baselayer makes a huge difference for me. After thousands of hours skiing, cycling, hiking, and running through New England winters, I've found Craft Active Extreme to be the best, by far. Compared to traditional Cap 1 type layers, it is extremely difficult to 'wet out' the material. Dry = warm.

For high output activities in the cold, I really don't think this can be beat. I love my Cap 4 layer, but for me it is much too warm for high output activities.

http://shop.craftsports.us/active-extreme-crewneck-mens-31790.html

Craft called this item 'Pro Zero Extreme' recently. You might be able to find deals looking for the old version.

Edit: my size small long sleeve weighs 109.5g

Layer on a windshirt for those less strenuous parts. Keep wearing whatever base you are comfortable with for the uphill parts. You can get some really light ones that pack down really small, put it in your pocket or clip it on somewhere, and then throw it on when you start to get chilly. Windshirts still breathe well, so you won't overheat, but you'll still get the added warmth abd protection it provides.

It's really the best way to go about it, probably hundreds of posts about it here in the forums, but they're all scattered about.

Try the Montbell Tachyon. 2.3oz for the hooded anorak and 1.6oz for the hoodless full zip jacket.

For running in cold weather, I usually wear a long-sleeve baselayer and a thin nylon vest, like this:

http://www.pearlizumi.com/content/pearlizumi/united-states/en/home/products/men/ride/apparel/outwear/outwear-11131104.html

Many cycling and running specific vests have partial or full mesh backs that might be helpful to wear with a backpack on. While moving (!) and with gloves and a hat, this is usually fine.

The key, I think, is to have some adequate insulation to put on after you are done with any high exertion. For instance, I'll have an old fleece in the car after a run.

It is generally colder then that here I've been running in my cap 4 hoody and some OR centrifuge pants on days that get near or above freezing and been quite happy. I also bring a Houdini and maybe a nano puff to add and remove as needed if i'm out for more then an hour.

I find the cap 4 more versatile then other thin grid fleeces i've used. I'm also quite aggressive about using the chest zip, pulling up the sleeves and taking the hood on and off to cool off/warm up when needed.

Thank you for your thoughts so far. Appreciate it.

Duncan – I agree very much about the quality of your base layer. The Montura Run Zip Maglia I have works very well. In the very, very, hot and humid summers here in Japan they work way better for me than the Cap 1 I used to wear. Feels way cooler by itself, and allows me to vent way more because of the huge ½ zip it has. I will take a look at the base layer you suggested. Always on the look out for a better option.

And E – I do dump heat by unzipping and exposing my forearms, which helps a bit. I used to put on/off/on/off my wind shirt (Montbell Tachyon), but went to the more breathable Rab Alpine Jacket (and on other ocassions Rab Boreas), for less faff factor if you will. I guess my question comes more to get insight from the trail running (or similar) side, as they don't put on/off their garments for each hill either. I often pass runners, I should just ask them of course. Just thought I ask here as well.

Steven – Thanks, I think something similar to that is where I came from. I have a very thin windvest with a mesh on the back that works really well. When it's a bit warmer I like to use the vest with a Patagonia Fore Runner l/s shirt. Cap 2 would be too breathable for example. One of the reasons I have been using the Tachyon and now the Rab Alpine Jacket so much is because of the hoods. They provide such great neck and head protection. I love opening it up, or putting on the hood, etc. Perhaps I should look or MYOG a hooded wind vest.
Do you layer the thinnest base layer underneath or combine it with a bit more thick or slightly wind resistant (runner specific) base layer?

Ryan – I have a couple of thinner grid fleeces, thicker and thinner iterations made from Polartec PowerDry High Efficiency and Pontetorto Technostretch (perhaps even better). Definitely agree on actively opening up zip, altering hoody/balaclava, dumping more heat through forearms etc. Not so much connected to this thread but the two I like best, with a more athletic fit than the Patagonia, are the Mountain Equipment Eclipse Hooded Zip Tee (great functionality, with even thinner areas where you need them and superb balaclava hood) and the Montura Run Zip Winter Maglia l/s (also with very nice thinner sections to dump more heat and great fit/very comfortable). For me that is still too warm though for the situations I'm describing.

Thanks!

How windy is it? Maybe you don't need to use the RAB Alpine Jacket? When I'm biking in the winter its really rare for me to use a shellayer, I usually put on an extra fleece or two instead. The extra insulation makes it about as warm but the wind can dry my sweat much better. When I stop there's more fabric to suck up the sweat acting as a buffer to hold it until I stop again. This makes me feel a lot dryer and just as warm. It can get a little chilly on the down hills though.

Another option for you if you want to minimize stopping time put a windlayer on and off could be a CAMP Flash anorak. The basic idea is that it doesn't have a back, so you dont have to stop and take your pack of to put it on. It's designed for skimountaineering racing where you have similar conditions to what you describe.

http://www.camp-usa.com/products/apparel/flash-anorak-1446.asp

Edvin – you may be on to something there. It is mostly around 25~60Km/hr. I would say that around these temps, when the wind gets above 35 I can really start to feel the wind chill factoring in. There is something to say though for being warmer and a bit more exposed to the wind. Being in my thinnest base layer, with my thinnest wind shirt, and still being cold but sweaty is what made me move to the Rab Alpine Jacket in the first place. I didn't think all out fleece and no wind shirt, but I thought a more breathable wind shirt would work well. I love to have a hood to protect or expose my neck and head to regulate heat. But perhaps a bit thicker base layer or very thin fleece and just wind vest might work better for now. I'll try it out this week to see how it goes.

That camp flash anorak looks very interesting too. Have to admire outside the box design like that making it to production. Bit off topic but reminded me of Montura's Trail Move Maglia, which is a vest, with a separate sleeves and hood piece that you can put on or get rid of..
http://www.matis.it/negozio/t-shirt-maglie-tecniche/1463-montura-trail-move-maglia-raptor.html

I'm extremely far from being an expert in this area, so some grains of salt may be in order, but did have some thoughts.

When it comes to windshirts and jackets, breathable is really relative. I don't know what the Rab Alpine jacket is like as i've never given it the breath test, but having breath tested various other shells, again there is quite a variation in air permeability.

How does the Alpine compare to the pre 2013 Houdini? That will help some for a reference base.

If i was in your situation, i would try this. An even more breathable wind jacket. Something akin to 1.1 oz nylon rip stop that is lightly calendared and with a light DWR coating, or maybe even a non calendared material with DWR or vice versa, calendared without DWR (you don't want both non calendared and no DWR coating as this stuff is quite breathable). One can relatively easily suck through their breath with such a fabric. But, if you blow next to the fabric, it provides some resistance.

Combine that with a thin, Merino-synth blend baselayer like Rab MeCo. It sounds like one of the problems is that you're getting a lot of that flash drying cooling effect that pure synth is known for. Merino synth blend will slow that down some, while being a bit warmer while wet (yes, the warm when wet wool thing does tend to be over exaggerated, but i've found there is some definite truth to it).

If your windjacket is even more breathable, it will allow more convective drying, but in combo with a fabric that won't be so cool when wet. Yet, MeCo dries in a decent time considering it's 65% Merino (course it depends on the weight and thickness too, thinner/lighter would be better).

Alternately and coming at it from a different perspective, i would also try this: A polypropylene fishnet (like Byrnje), with your Rab Alpine jacket. Because there is much less surface contact with your skin, and so little absorption or saturation of your sweat into the fabric, it should feel more comfortable and "dryer" overall. It's also quicker and easier to vent heat and moisture by opening up.

Personally i wouldn't go with completely forsaking some kind of wind resistance. Most fleece are far too breathable in single or double layer at those thicknesses. You will still sweat, and yes the great permeability will speed up the drying of the fabric, but you will still get some of that synth cool affect which will chill you and you can't underestimate the chilling affect of stronger wind, especially if any sweat is involved.

I'm beginning to think that fabrics like MeCo almost offer the "better" in combo (not best or most ideal as in singular sense) of both worlds of natural and synthetic.

As some have been mentioning on other threads recently, warmth and coldness seem to have various factors, some subtle and more surface perceptual than others, but which affect physiology nonetheless for the perception (mind affecting matter in a way). Though, i would say fleece is a bit warmer feeling when wet as compared to silkweight polartec power dry or the like.

Another quick idea is this. Use a fairly wind resistant vest with baselayer of your choice, but have separate sleeves that you can keep in a pocket. In combo, it's not quite as warm as a full on jacket (because there will still be more venting from that gap between the arm hole opening and top of sleeve), but can be significantly warmer feeling than a vest alone, but has great flexibility/adaptability while being fairly easy/quick to do.

I have tried some of the above, but i don't hike at near the intensity, (nor probably the altitudes) as you, so can't fully relate in most respects, hence some grains of salt, etc.

If you are still overheating with a base layer and windshirt, go shirtless. Your sweat will evaporate almost instantly which is what you want, you don't want your shirt accumulating and evaporating when you are less active.

Are you using yr zippers? … Unzipped on the uphill and fully zipped on the downhill?

The problem is that yr sweating out yr layer and then getting chilled when its windier/lower activity

The key to this is to

– thermoregulate with yr zipper
– use the thinnest base layer possible … I find the ultrathin nike drifit or other running top works wells
– use the most brethable winshirt or vest u can … Or dont use the windshirt if yr going hard
– when stopped for more than a few minutes add on a belay puffy
– on the slower downhill sections add a light fleece vest as a semi-belay layer

If you already have the thinnest layer possible and the most breathable windshirt/vest you can get then its a technique issue … Not a gear one

;)

Just Justin – I very much appreciate your several suggestions/thoughts.

I can't use wool/wool blends. Trust me on this, I get itchy with a Cap 2 shirt/legs and that is unfortunately no joke. I'm very much open/interested in a mesh l/s layer. Have thought about it before but the ones I came across here in Japan were either too small or too expensive as of yet. I am on the lookout for one to experiment with though.

The Rab Alpine Jacket is Pertex Equilibrium. It is an amazing fabric, great DWR and feels very comfortable next to skin. I don't have experience with the pre-2013 Houdini but the Pertex Equilibrium is more breathable than any other wind shirt I have tried.

I have two Montbell Tachyons, which are not nearly as breathable, but one is absolutely trashed since I have used it every time I went out for the last two years. It still performs great but I can imagine making a hooded vest out of it as I still have the other one too. I would only do that because it allows me to keep a hood with the vest though, since I have a great running vest with a mesh back. Thing is I really, really like a windvest hood because it allows me to cover one of my main cold or cooling spots and lets me go so much cooler for the rest of my gear. The Rab Alpine Jacket has the best hood ever though, and also allows me to vent through two generous meshed side pockets, something the Tachyon anoraks don't have.

I do think the flash cooling effect is one of the reasons of my post, but other than that it is just the overall cold temperature that I start feeling when my cardio effort is less high. Which brings me to:

Justin Baker – I'm not sure but I don't think I can avoid sweating by going with thinner/cooler clothing. I could run naked and still sweat. I'm wearing the absolute thinnest/coolest base layer I have come across (and I have tested a lot of them in the extreme humid and hot Japanese summers here). Part of of the case I'm describing is that I'm too cold, not just from sweat, but from the overall outside condition. I've tried to go just in my base layer or just the Rab Boreas (extremely breathable, between a base/mid layer and a windshirt) just before I start sweating for example and it's just too cold on the ridges and peaks. That way is possible but it's like I used to do it, with just a long sleeve running shirt, and then donning and shedding, donning and shedding my extra wind shirt. Part of my question is to get some feedback from for example trail runners or other people who do high exertion/fast activities and what they use for their clothing system. Perhaps shirtless is one of those options but if so that approach hasn't worked for me. Thanks.

Eric – yes I am. Although I wouldn't rule out me getting better at my technique at all, I have no problem regulating, last year I was fine. But part of it is because I can now push myself significantly harder, for much longer. And part of it is that I was also spending more time changing etc.

I am now looking what people do who run trail races etc and don't spend a lot of time regulating. It might be that I just need to bite through it, which I have done up till now. Or it might be there is a system that works for runners etc. that I hadn't thought of. Cheers..

That stinks about the wool and wool-synth blend issue.

Pertex Equilibrium IS nice stuff. I sewed some of this fabric onto a windshirt that didn't have sleeves or a hood. Yes, definitely one of the more breathable and quick drying fabrics for wind protection out there. There are more breathable fabrics, but not sure where you can find pre made jackets with them. Like i was mentioning, 1.1 oz nylon ripstop when non calendared and with light or no DWR coating is quite breathable, even more than PE. Do you "MYOG" at all?

It's hard from here, to determine that sweet spot of just right amount of permeability and wind resistance balance.

Hope you can find a good fishnet baselayer to try. If you get a polypropylene one, it will likely start to smell bad if it doesn't have some kind of treatment. I have less stink factor it seems than a lot of American males my age (unusual and very healthy diet, etc), but even i notice it stinking up fast. The major downside to it.

Justin – I would love to get more into MYOG. My current set up doesn't allow it though as my studio is already cramped full of gear for work. Hope to make changes there soon. So far the only things I do is cut off sleeves of perfectly fine fleeces or shirts if I want a vest. I am also on a very healthy diet (and thriving on it) but sure I could make that mesh stink regardless. I go out mostly by myself though, and I've given up on being presentable on the occasional post-hike train ride home.

Ito …

The question is perhaps better answered on a trail runner forum … Specifically those who run im the winter hills

When yr pushing yourself there is no good answer as you WILL sweat out your base layer … You need ti keep moving to keep warm

Which is why people who move fast with minimal gear dont stop when its cold/wet …. Even when "stopped" they need to keep the lega pumping

Going light and fast is about skill, fitness and SUFFERING … You sacrifice comfortable temperature management for speed

For climbing approaches anyways … One can add a light fleece or other such when travelling at a lower speed on descent

A very light fleece vest in ur pack that fits BOTH over and under yr shell may work for you … Put it over when moving and less faff, or under for when yr colder

Dont spend alot … A simple100 wt fleece that costs like 20$ in the states (im sure japan has discount store) should work … Or but a cheap light fleece and cut off the sleeves (keep those for arm warmers)

Or simply wear less going uphill, wind vest or no windshirt

If you are out in the moutains in winter some sort of emergency insulaion layer is advisable for full stops or if you get injured of course

;)

I found that I too sweat like a beast and experience a similar problem as you. Through much research I found my winter layers for when i am ACTIVELY moving to be:

Temps -10 to 15F or so:
Capaline 3 baselayer
Columbia l/s hiking/fishing shirt

Temps above 15F:
Columbia l/s hiking shirt

Other items almost always worn:
Marmot wrist gaiters
smartwool beanie and or balaclava

Your going to sweat, its a given. But I found this combo to be able to dry really well and not get saturated with sweat. The columbia shirt does a decent job at cutting the wind, and as long as I am actively moving I am fine. If I plan to stop I just pull on a puffy or wind shell.

Well I will be able to test one or two set ups this Saturday as I will do 40Km and it will be -4˚C (-12˚C windchill) with 55~65Km winds.

My main thoughts are I'm going to sweat regardless and I want at least some wind protection. Either through a more closed knit running shirt or through a wind vest or wind shirt. Since I really like the Quantum Equilibrium fabric and the hood of the Rab Alpine Jacket I will try with some other base layer set ups first. I feel there has to be a permutation that works here. If not with something I have, then the Craft base layer or fishnet layers look like something to try.

Second set up would be if it get's colder wearing a thin grid fleece or thicker base layer with just a wind vest/butchered Tachyon.

Third is although I don't really take breaks, just enough to pour water from a water bag into my bottle, if I do I will immediately put my down hoody on.

I did a breath test on the different wind shirts/vest I have and it is very good to know which is more breathable, which one more resistant (the Rab Alpine Jacket is the most breathable after the Rab Boreas, which is more of a soft wind shell). This information will influence my choices for testing different combinations (i.e. if I do wear a grid fleece as a base layer, than I could layer with either my vest only, or the most breathable Boreas).

I also really like the idea of MYOG or at least altering jackets into anoraks or vests, adding hoods etc. I will look into a sewing machine as well.

Thanks again for all the comments.

Great ideas here. When you mentioned the Montura system with a separate hood and sleeves it reminded me of the EMS power stretch arm warmers I use when I hike or snowshoe.

The material is soft, wicks and can be pulled down to expose your arm or pulled back up when needed.

http://www.ems.com/product/index.jsp?productId=12225426

They also have a power stretch cap or balaclava which could be put or taken off while you run.

Yeah those arm warmers are great, and very timely as I just have some chameece fleece sleeves over after cutting them off a Montbell pull-on. At the same time I doubt I need them as I often have my wind shirt arms up, to get rid of some warmth. They might be good if I do decide to go cooler and then allow me to get warmer a bit. I also have leg warmers like that, a base layer pants, but without the groin/bum area. Easy to put on/off if necessary. I don't know for other people but I do find exposing or covering my wrists and neck (carotid and radial artery areas) to be very effective in regulating my temperature. Which is partly why I am so keen on keeping a hood in the mix. Although I guess that could also be compartmentalised as you aptly call it with a grid fleece balaclava.

Thought I would post what ended up working for me, in case someone searches for similar information a year from now.

It was all in the base layer. My Rab Alpine Jacket is one of the most breathable and well designed wind shirts I have come across (Pertex Equilibrium is a great fabric). I tried a couple of different base layers and found out:

-Too thin to avoid sweating in the first place is a myth if your exertion level is really high. The thin base layers makes you feel too cold overall during these temps, while you're warm from the sweat at the same time. I think this combination is what resulted in the feverish feeling of my first post. Stopping with the thin base layers also often meant cold flashes.

-Thicker was better but would result in more clammy periods when wind would lie down or after an period of high exertion, like a hard climb up.

-For me, a thinner Polartec Power Dry shirt with my wind shirt did the trick. I got a Mammut Atacazo Zip Pull and it was perfect. Not too thick to basically be a mid layer which is too hot for the high exertion. Overall temp was cool enough but not cold, and the Power Dry breathes so well it was always comfortable – no cold flashes when cooling down during a break. Most important it doesn't feel wet, even when it is. I had to check my shirt and it was soaked, totally didn't feel like it though when standing around.

-Wrist gaiters are a great help. Like a scarf for your wrists. My shirt didn't have thumb loops and it does help to keep the wrist covered, or uncover when hot. See also the great thread here:
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?bo=watch&forum_thread_id=84456

and especially this article, about where the bodies great heat exchangers are:
http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/15.03/GrahnDHellerC_LITC_2004.pdf

Thanks for sharing your thoughts!

(As an aside, but this is very person, and exertion, and condition specific, the Atacazo was between a cap 2 and 3 in warmth, definitely thinner than a cap 4 but with the same very open grid as the cap 4.).

In 1981 I did the Canadian Ski Marathon, 100 miles in two days from Lachute, Quebec to Ottowa, Ontario.
I'd classify that as "high exertion" winter sports.

My layering was 2 layers of Helly Hansen polypropelene long johns, a Lycra one-piece race suit, a wool sweater and a nylon windbreaker. Worked very well for me.
One pair of polypro sock liners and one pair of wool socks were all I needed under my Addidas XC race shoes/"boots".

A pair of polyester glove liners beneath a pair of Swix XC racing leather gloves.
And a light wool Addidas stocking hat. (No, Addidas didn't sponsor me, it was just what I happened to have.)

Eric,

Either you keep a good diary or have a very good memory :-)

Stephen,

Psychologists say that we store details of unpleasent memories very well. That grueling 100 mile marathon is something I will never forget, even though I usually can't even remember why I walked into a room "to get something". :o) So, yeah, I distinctly remember what I wore, the K2 XC racing skis, the Excel carbon fiber poles and the floppy Addidas bindings.

And I still have my time schedule for the CSM's 4 daily food stations in a tiny ZipLoc in my dresser drawer. If you did not leave the last food station by 5 PM you were not permitted to do the last leg because the officials didn't want you out on the trail after dark. (Even though we started both days at 6 AM in the dark with headlamps!) I did teh race with a Canadian buddy from Toronto. He said "CSM" really stood for "Canadian State of Masochism". Those Canucks, eh? What droll humor they have.