Lofty Fleece Layer

A very minor point, but possibly important to some – It's a 1/4 zip.

Yes, it's a 1/4 zip. Thanks for that. :)

I also saw a Hoodie on gear swap once, but it looks like Patagonia discontinued other varieties. There's still a Micro-D beanie and scarf, and a neck gaiter.

that actually looks just like 100 wt fleece … the fabric weight certainly indicates its roughly in the same insulation range …

is there anything special about the material that makes it superior to a 100 wt fleece from any other brand?

;)

Fleecy mid layers are just universal clothing. They are a core part of my clothing system and perfect for wet weather and the cold-humid conditions found in the Pacific NW. My recent choices are an R1 1/2 zip vest and a full zip jacket. A Power Stretch hoodie was a past favorite and I need to get another.

My favorite cold weather system is a medium weight Power Dry long sleeve tee with a windshirt or rain shell for active trail use, supplemented with the R1 jacket (really more like a cardigan sweater) and a Micro Puff vest. They all layer well in any combination with a shell. The fleece is the first thing out of the pack when I feel chilly.

Fleecy mid layers will take your light sleep system to the next level with no more investment or weight added.

I have a pair of military Power Dry bottoms that make the best pajama bottoms made. You can go straight to wet camp wear by simply adding your rain pants. Again, Power Stretch bottoms are also excellent for sleep and layering with rain gear.

I wear 200w fleece around town, but it starts to overlap with Primaloft type gear for weight and bulk and the puffy stuff ends up more efficient in the cold.

"that actually looks just like 100 wt fleece … the fabric weight certainly indicates its roughly in the same insulation range …"

It's actually lighter than "Classic" 100w fleece at 4.7oz, vs ~6oz for 100w. Certainly in the same class of garment.

If you want a great 100w style top, the Sahalie "Butter Fleece" 1/4 zip tops are a steal. The First Ascent Cloud Layer fleeces are a good buy on sale.

When I hear (or read) "Lofty Fleece", I think of Polartec Thermal Pro High Loft.

But I think that material is pretty heavy, isn't it? I've never owned something like the Mountain Hardware MonkeyMan or a Patagonia R3, so I don't know how it would compare in warmth vs weight to other fleece layers.

One of the reasons I like this particular fleece over a lot of others is the simplicity. No pockets, no thumb loops, no hood, no plastic zipper pulls, no toggles, no liner.

For a minimalist, it's perfect. Everything you need and nothing you don't. For someone who likes these features, it might come up short, but for me, I don't see the point in a vest with zippered pockets underneath a fleece with zippered pockets and then a jacket, with more pockets, on top of that. Extra weight and bulk.

I am also skeptical of layering R1. Doesn't the grid allow moisture transport? Will grid on top of grid be as efficient as a non-gridded fleece on top of a grid fleece, or just transitioning from a single grid layer to your puffy?

These are almost silly sounding questions, but a layering system, I think, should be a sum of its parts rather than just independent pieces. When I choose stuff, I try not to have redundancies like wicking properties, insulation properties, windproofing, and pockets. These things are usually only needed once, even if your system is four parts.

Sadly, in the consumer driven outdoors market, every piece needs to have every feature….

I am also skeptical of layering R1. Doesn't the grid allow moisture transport? Will grid on top of grid be as efficient as a non-gridded fleece on top of a grid fleece, or just transitioning from a single grid layer to your puffy?

– the grid is superior in terms of moisture transport … the idea is to have less contact surface against the skin, now there are different ways to do this such as pile and pertex, furry interiors, etc … however the grid pattern allows for superior breathability as well as the gaps allow greater air flow out … also powerdry is a bi-component fabric designed to maximize the wicking action

– if you are doing it "correctly" you wont have "grid on grid" … what you will have is a very thin highly wicking base layer and the grid fleece over that … or the grid right against the bare skin … the idea is to get the grid right against the skin or the thinnest base layer for the moisture to wick outwards … and to maximize breathability … the T2/T3/R1 is not meant as your standard many layers piece, it is meant to be part of the "action" suit concept where you wear a minimal amount of layers with a high/low output cycle

so in short … a T3/R1 is a waste if you are using it in the "traditional" way … youre better off buying a cheap 100 wt fleece IMO

;)

Eric,

That confirms exactly what I'm talking about. An R1 piece is wasted unless you wear it right up against your skin or a thin baselayer.

This is also the reason I didn't get a grid fleece; it allows me a better warmth to weight ratio when I'm wearing my fleece over a thick baselayer, a windshirt, or a puffy. I'm not tied to wearing it next-to-skin for best results.

I'm sitting here in my kinda chilly computer room wearing an old EMS 300 weight polartec fleece.

With both shoulder and elbow-to-wrist patches and pit zips it ain't light but after 18 years it's still very warm.

The jacket's "grid" on the inside is just puffs of thick fleece. The outer fleece is shorter and tighter.

For layering beneath a GTX or eVent jacket 300 weight fleece is just what I need IF I don't have to backpack it.

But for backpacking in winter I'll take my nylon shelled Thermolite Micro because it's both lighter and warmer than the EMS fleece jacket and far less bulky to pack.

P.S.
I thought the fleece v.s. shelled synthetic insulation debate was long ago settled in favor of shelled synthetic (puffy) jackets.

"I am also skeptical of layering R1. Doesn't the grid allow moisture transport? Will grid on top of grid be as efficient as a non-gridded fleece on top of a grid fleece, or just transitioning from a single grid layer to your puffy? "

Yes, one of the great features of R1/Power Dry is the breathability and call those cells trap warm air. It needs a shell for full warmth. Worn without a shell it will take the chill off cool still morning air.

Layering multiple layers of fleece loses to a puffy layer. IMHO, the best combo is base layer/fleece/shell. You could certainly throw a puffy over a fleece, but it would have to be really cold and you start to get the Michelin Man effect.

Would grid on top of grid work? Sure, but why would you haul multiple layers of the same stuff? I would add something like a puffy vest. An R1 jacket and a Micro Puff vest are about the same weight. You could still wear the vest with you base layer if that suits the situation.

I think of fleece as mid layer stuff. You can certainly wear Power Stretch or Power Dry next to you skin and that can be handy when you camp and your base layer is wet or is being laundered.

Cap 3 is about as heavy as I would go with a base layer use for layering with fleece. That is good fore shoulder season active hiking with a wind shell as needed. The fleece comes out for breaks or maybe a cold downhill section.

"P.S.
I thought the fleece v.s. shelled synthetic insulation debate was long ago settled in favor of shelled synthetic jackets."

I also think that fleece has a bell curve of usefulness. Too thin, and a baselayer serves the same purpose. Too thick, and a lofty down or synthetic puffy would better serve the purpose. I think 100wt is the golden ratio here, where you get a sub-10oz layer that provides a great deal of warmth in a variety of conditions without being redundant with a good puffy.

And I think at most temperatures under 30º, you really do need and want both types simultaneously. Fleece + Puffy is my system, at any rate.

"For layering beneath a GTX or eVent jacket 300 weight fleece is just what I need IF I don't have to backpack it."

That's my preference too (not necessarily that weight). Typically if it's above 20* and I'm moving, I'm good with just a base layer and shell. In this scenario, I'll carry a puffy to throw on in camp or on breaks.

Below 20* is where I start to add extra layers when I'm skiing, hiking, etc and I much prefer to wear a fleece in this scenario.

That’s a great price and weight for this for this fleece. I'm going to drop a subtle hint with Mrs. Claus.

Ian,

I am now hunting for a moving BPL profile picture. Thanks….

if i had to choose the one item of clothing that i find most useful and always along for a trip it's my power stretch hoodie. it's the garment that i build most of my layering around. it feels great aginst skin, works perfeclty as a second layer, breaths well and is easy to thermoregulate with a deep chest zipper, sleeves that are easy to push up and and hood that can go over or under a helmet. having used a number of the other fleece material of the similar weight i always migrate back to my polartec power stretch hoodie. for the most part, i've relegated heavier weight fleece to around town and go with primaloft or down when looking for "loft" in insulation.

"That’s a great price and weight for this for this fleece. I'm going to drop a subtle hint with Mrs. Claus."

Sorry dude, but I've read lots of your posts here – I don't think you do subtle….

"P.S.
I thought the fleece v.s. shelled synthetic insulation debate was long ago settled in favor of shelled synthetic jackets."

No way! A fleece plus a windshirt wins hands down. That's where the Marmot DriClime windshirt fails, as you always have the liner tagging along. That than the fact that most of the shelled fleece jackets are boat anchors. Handy around town and work, but weak for weight vs versatility.

I tried a 300w jacket and never found it cold enough to wear one around town. Way to heavy for trail use, where a synthetic puffy trumps it.

Heah, I lost weight and sold my hoodie and the replacement du jour is an R1 jacket that I got super cheap. R1 does breathe and vent well and it's pretty tough. It seems like it would be colder when you take a first look, but throw a shell over it and it's toasty and dry. PNW weather + rain shell + R1 is a match.

Dale, the only time I think your R1 is a poor choice is when it's over another R1 vest. YMMV, though, it's definitely doing something, just not as much as it could.

My around-town, fix-the-bike-in-the-barn, i'm-going-to-a-bar-in-Boston-and-scumbags-steal-coats coat is my Patagonia Retro-X jacket. I found it on super-sale and love the warmth, but the weight is insane. 7.5oz, 1/4" pile is pretty heavy, especially with a windproof liner, and the placement of features can only be called "irresponsible."

The pockets zip upside-down, wind comes in through the bottom of the jacket and freezes my hands, since the pockets have no back-facing fleece liner. It looks like they decided to ignore 30 years of jacket design improvements as an homage to the "Retro" portion of the name.

I'm sure the musk of bike grease and infrequent washings stirs the senses of nearby women, too, so at least I've got that going for me.

Carrying a synthetic fill jacket was definitely stupid light for skurka. I've never understood why people choose weight over function in inclement weather, I choose the most versatile and effective set up.
I have the micro-d hoody that i recently purchased on gear swap. It's pretty generic fleece, nothing special about it, but warm and comfortable and i agree that the simplicity is nice. It reminds me of a casual cotton hoody.
For active hiking I really like a fleece vest. It's really easy to slide on and off, no messing around with inside out sleeves.
You could also consider, and I feel like I'm speaking ultralight blasphemy here, but wool for extended wet. It is noticeably warmer while wet, but heavy when wet and slow to dry. Wool is pretty miserable when wet but it won't fail to keep you warm. Me thinks that skurka would have been well served with a light wool vest after being hit with days of extended rain.

btw, i would love to try the patagonia synchilla hoody.

Midweight merino wool, I find, is quite pleasant when wet.

The science is covered extensively in my favorite BPL article, found here:
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/comfort_moisture_transport_wool_synthetic_clothing.html

Basically, fleece fibers are solid little cylinders of plastic. Merino wool fibers are microscopically complex, with outer scales that affect how water interacts with it.

A wet fleece has no water in the fibers. All of the water is trapped between fibers at the microscopic level. That's just as bad, when you think about it, but at least it dries faster once it stops raining.

In wool, the outer portion of the fabric doesn't hold water, but the cores do. So, water is pulled into a wool shirt and held there until heat or airflow evaporates it.

That means a wool shirt doesn't feel clammy like cotton. It feels quite nice on the outside; you can tell it's damp, but it never feels "wet" in the same way other fabrics do. The water trapped in the fiber retains heat in much the same way air retained heat when the shirt was dry, so the garment remains warm.

So I don't mind merino wool up to midweight (~200-300wt) in wet weather, but I wouldn't use my grandmother's wool sweater.

Heh, yeah the new wool stuff is nice. The old wool stuff, you know the kind not made for hiking, has the potential to stretch out horribly. That same wool is also loftier and warmer than most hiking specific merino wool.

"lofty" and "fleece" are mutually exclusive. Fleece doesn't give very much warmth for the weight.

One thing is, you have another layer of trapped air between layers. In that case, the thinnest fleece would be best. And it will also weigh less so it's not quite as bad as thicker fleece.

Best – base layer and jacket

If that's not enough (which for me is maybe 20F or 25F) then add thin fleece in between. Maybe just another thin shirt would be better. Like a wind shirt or just another base layer.

That will go below 20F and I have no experience for below that.

I am wearing 200 wt fleece vest. Very nice for when I don't have to carry it in my backpack.

With an outer shell, I would say grid fleece is warmer than 100 wt. reg. fleece. Its definitely warmer per weight. Plus as others have said, it moves moisture better.

I ordered some non calendared and non dwr (so quite breathable) 1.1 oz rip stop nylon and plan to make a front Apex insulated vest with it, and it will only have one layer of fabric on the back part. Because of the great breathability and thinness of the fabric, I expect it to dry significantly faster than most synth loft stuff, and it will be very light weight.

Combining that with a lighter long sleeve grid fleece (like Pat. Cap. 4 hoody), a thin base layer long sleeve shirt, and a windjackect, would be a great combo for a very wide temp range at low weight. Course with addition of a down jacket for camp/sleep.