Clothing System Help

For 30's to high 40's, I'd be inclined to use the windshirt over my baselayer, but I run warm. I would put the fleece on over the windshirt when I stop, and take it off again when I continue without fussing over the windshirt.

The nice thing about a windshirt-fleece combo is the sheer range in temperatures I'm usually comfortable at. If I started hiking in 20º and it warmed up to 35º, I have found that I don't need to de-layer necessarily because both breathe very well. I would give them a wide applicable temperature range, wider if the fleece is full-zip.

But for the temperatures you're describing, I would try the windshirt and baselayer and be cold for the first ~10 minutes of your hike; after that, you'll likely warm right up.

Like Max;

I'd go with the windshirt as long as possible (and something to keep my head/hands warm). But if it's obvious I eventually "need" the fleece on because its just that cold, I'd then consider tossing the windshirt over the fleece and leave the windshirt unzipped as needed (since my fleece is a pullover). But to be honest, since getting a down jacket, I've found my fleece gets left home more often these days, unless rain is in the forcast. If I need to whip something on while resting, the down is just as easy to pull out as the fleece.

Matt

I would be right about with Max on this. I think you're unlikely to wear the fleece much under the windshirt in those temps. If there is no wind you might find yourself just hiking in the base and no windshirt. The good news is you just make this decision on the fly and its easy to change layers as you go.

I will add this: if the temperatures are in the 30's-40's and it's not windy, leave your 9-oz windshirt at home. The fleece will be fine to regulate your temperature, and saving more than half a pound of carrying weight is a beautiful thing.

That's a really heavy windshirt!

its depends …

most of the time you wont use the fleece under the windshirt at those temps … youll overheat …

HOWEVER …

– if you have a cold metabolism you may … i know women who wear much more than myself at those temps, they would freeze without a fleece

– if its VERY wet like in the 30s and raining all day in the PNW … you may want that fleece … which is the exact conditions mr.skurka wished for one …

– if you are moving slowly due to technical ground (even washed out trails, rocky ground, etc ,,,) or injury (pulled muscle, sore legs, etc …), conditions (darkness) … you may want that fleece as you cant just "hike faster" to warm up in those cases

so in short, there is NO right or wrong answer … it depends on you, the conditions and the terrain …

;)

Thanks for the advice. I would rather take either the fleece or the windshirt since they are the same weight and I will have a down jacket. I would likely just toss on the down jacket when I am sitting still or if I need to warm up, I am now debating an either/or situation between the fleece and the windshirt. Since I have a very light rain jacket I am thinking: base layer, fleece, down jacket, rain jacket. Any assortment of combinations should do the trick. The reason I am not very sure how much wind there will be, but just my base layer and rain jacket should do the trick if its windier, light wind my base and fleece ought to work. I expect night time temps and morning temps high teens and low 20 F.

and for the most part it works. i'd start with my base (most breathable layer) and add my fleece(polartec power stretch) followed by the wind shirt (least breathable layer) and remove in that order. it makes sense to go from your most breathable layer to your least breathable layer.

you will be fine with what you have, it's just a matter of developing a routine that works for you.

I wear polyester shirts like REI's Sahara which I doubt most here would call a "wind shirt". But for cold wind I use my eVent parka.

I have never, ever, seen the necessity for windshirts, viewing them as extra weight.
If wearing my gridded Polartec Power top beneath my polyester shirt ain't enough then I just add my WPB rain parka.

(The gridded, zip T-neck top is to supplement my 30 F. WM Megalite down bag on cold nights. Also nice to wear beneath my down sweater at night or breakfast time.)

A windshirt gets stuck into the classification of a jacket, but it works better if you think of it as shirt, albeit with some jacket-like features like a hood or full front zipper. If you are using a windshirt, there is no need for a button front nylon shirt and, as you have found, no need for the windshirt of you prefer the button down.

Windshirts can be considerably lighter, *should* have good DWR, and can add more versatility with a hood and full front zip. My Houdini is 4oz vs the typical button down shirts I have from Ex Officio, REI, and TNF that are more in the 10oz range.

IMHO, the major advantages to the button-down shirts are roll-up sleeves and durability, other than that Bwana-Inspector-Gadget look :)

Shirts provide sun protection. A Houdini, not so much…well, none. Also, mosquitoes can't bite through my spf 40 nylon shirt. They can't bite through a Houdini either, but I wouldn't want to wear a windshirt next to my skin.

I used to wear a wicking base layer while carrying a pack, but they're not very good for sun protection and worthless for mosquito protection.

Since I carry a wpb shell, I find a windshirt redundant, and don't carry one. I do use my Houdini on local day hikes and out the door evening walks though.

If you would wear a Supplex shirt next to your skin, why not a Houdini? IMHO, a light colored windshirt is a very good sun screen. In fact, I don't get the knit polyester hoodies sold as sun shirts. They are more like a Cap2/3 base layer and too hot.

In actual use, I would wear a white long sleeve silkweight base layer for good sun protection, with the windshirt going on for cooler legs or when the wind comes up (novel idea, eh?). I'm usually hiking in the forest and wear a short sleeve base tee with good wicking properties (I hike, therefore, I sweat!).

The Houdini makes a great pairing with a poncho, keeping the cold wind off your exposed sides and the DWR helps with the elbow to wrist exposure.

I have a bunch of button-down nylon shirts that are great for around town and travel in hot weather, but I find them sticky on the trail. A base layer tee is far more comfortable.

Supplex shirt will function as base layer

Also gives good sun and insect protection

If you're buying a shirt, it maybe doesn't say Supplex. Should be a tight weave with no holes for insects to stick their probisci through or UV rays to get through. Maybe a sticker that says Sun protection 30 or something.

Or buy Supplex and make your own.

"I will add this: if the temperatures are in the 30's-40's and it's not windy, leave your 9-oz windshirt at home. The fleece will be fine to regulate your temperature, and saving more than half a pound of carrying weight is a beautiful thing.

That's a really heavy windshirt!"

Once you step away from the UL windshirts, 9-10oz is a very typical weight. You do get more features like pockets, adjustable cuffs, better hood management– much more jacket-like than shirt-like. I have a Royal Robbins wind jacket that is 12.8oz and I wear it a lot in town and for travel, using it to layer just like my Houdini. It is polyester and breaths very well, and it has zippered hand and chest pockets, elastic drawstrings on hood and hem, and Velcro tab adjusters on the cuffs. If your whole clothing system is just a couple ounces heavy because you don't want a fragile 2-4oz windshirt, the UL Cops aren't going to arrest you :) 9oz used to be considered a very respectable weight.

Temperatures are slippery. We just went for a brisk 3 mile walk and I was wearing hat, gloves, a snug Power Stretch 1/4 zip top (think supper base layer), and the Royal Robbins windshirt. I was wearing REI Mistral soft shell pants and mid boots. It was sunny, 36F, and there the wind was gusting to 14MPH. I was wearing a fanny pack, so no backpack insulation and the terrain was dead flat. Everything was warm enough, but I wanted a better cap and something around my neck and chin. A balaclava or buffy would have been great, or just a simple scarf. It was cold starting out, but I warmed up quickly and more so as the wind dropped.

If I had a pack on and walking uphill, I would have been venting much sooner and dropping the shell if there was no wind. Take someone fresh from Los Angeles and they would have been freezing I think, or say someone with 20 pounds less body mass and so on.

Fleece is worthless in any wind without a shell. I think of fleece as stand-alone fluff to e added to a wind or rain shell. It is nice to take a light chill off when there is no wind, but not to be depended on for warmth alone. Fleece breathes and shuns moisture, it is cheap and tough. Put is on under your raincoat, or climb in your sleeping bag and it is toasty.

I was out hiking on Saturday when temperatures here hovered around 30 degrees. I was fine in just my wicking base layer and R1 fleece. I even had to unzip the fleece (pullover but nice mid length zipper) to regulate temperature at times. If it were windy, I can see wanting the windshirt since the fleece wouldn't give any protection. But, I may have not worn the fleece at that point. Having some light gloves and hat help a lot at these temps and give you more diverse layering options and temp regulation.

I'd say you need to factor in wind and rain. In calm dry conditions, I'm comfortable hiking at 40 degrees in a wool hoody, windshirt, mittens, long johns and shorts.

But here's what I posted to our blog on day ~30 of our May hike in Scotland, where the temps hovered near 40-50 for most of the trip, but included rain and wind.

Well we're both pretty tired of cool temps with wind and/or rain. I asked one of the visitor center ladies about whether this has been an unusually cool May and she said, it was sunny last Sunday! as if one sunny day redeems the month. We have no idea if this is all normal, but we think California is just around the corner and we're happy about that. It was 42 degrees when we left our little tent this morning, and it is 41 a outside the tent as I type this a half hour before sunset. Forecast high today for the nearest town, Stromness, was 44, so it's a safe bet that the sea surface temp must be right around 42-44 degrees. 42 and sunny is terrific walking weather. But 42 and mostly cloudy with relentless strong wind is a different deal, mentally draining to have so much wind. What to wear while hiking in these conditions?

4 layers on legs (150 weight wool long johns, 200 weight wool calf-length long johns, calf-length hiking pants, rainpants)
5 layers on torso (250 weight wool hoody, Patagonia Cap4 hoody, hooded windshirt, Patagonia Piton vest, raincoat)
3 hoods + Buff
2 layers on hands (OR Flurry mittens and waterproof overmitts)
Gaiters (to keep ankles warm)

[edit after trip: looking at the Wunderground data for the nearest station at IORKNEYI2, the average wind speed for the 24 hours of May 23 was 26mph, gusting to 51mph. Temperature range was 39-46.]

That is the list of clothing I wore that day while hiking!

Interesting, Amy. I don't think I even OWN that much gear, let alone use it. ha!

As for fleece VS windshirt, I would take the fleece.

"IMHO, a light colored windshirt is a very good sun screen."

O.K. hold a Houdini up to the sun. Now hold a polyester spf 30 or above shirt up to the sun. There's a big difference. On the REI site, the Houdini reports "NO" spf.

I mean geeze, the damn thing's transparent.

But Dale, your "actual use" scenario seems good. In the PNW sun issues are perhaps a bit less than where I usually hike, in the Sierra. (I grew up into my 20's hiking in the Cascades and the Olympics.) I'm sure that a silk weight base layer with a windshirt is just fine for sun protection.

There may be other windshirts besides the Houdini that perform better in terms of sunblock. I don't pretend to know all the brands.

Max wrote "Interesting, Amy. I don't think I even OWN that much gear, let alone use it. ha!"

My humble suggestion is this – don't hike in Scotland with your current kit :) Granted it is November now, but Dr Master's report about today's storm in Europe puts it into perspective "Winds gusted up to 142 mph overnight in the Scottish Highlands"
http://www.wunderground.com/blog/JeffMasters/article.html?entrynum=2593

Based on our trip, I'd say that's only 110 mph greater than the normal baseline wind!

I would roast in all that Amy, even with strong winds..

Funny enough, when i was in bonnie Scotland in April (back in 2007), we apparently transferred the weather from VA to there and vice versa. It was sunny, in the 70's most of our time there, while back home it was raining and high 40's and low 50's.

It was very, very weird. Even up in the Cairngorms it was quite pleasant. It was really nice staying at Jenny's bothy. There were points when i was walking around without a shirt, getting a sort of sun tan.

Jeffrey, might be so, but i think necessity of SPF of clothes, etc, is quite over stated.

I have a very light complexion, classic Scottish-Celtic with freckles, my beard is quite red and often have red highlights in my hair (especially in summer) and i have very light gray blue eyes. In short, i burn, very, very easy and don't tan well at all.

Here in VA, i spend a lot of time outside in the summer wearing thin, loose woven Linen shirts.

I never get a sun burn through them, even when i go to the beach all day. My preferred sun screen is a white, long sleeve linen shirt with a wide brim hat, white linen pants (very Cuban'esqe/old man i suppose). And when i go in the water, i wear synth shorts and a white polyester long sleeve shirt.

So, unless you're albino or live on or very close to the equator, i think in practice a Houdini, or any tightly woven synth shirt is going to provide plenty of protection. Well, except for maybe the desert also.