2013 Houdini, I like it

Going up in a cold sleet, while in the Apache Kid wilderness, didn't work at all, but going along a sunny ridge hit with a frigid wind, it excelled worn over a Cap 2 zipT and Merino 1 short sleeve. What I buy windshell uppers for is sunny frigid with a cold wind that a second shirt cannot handle but a rainshell is too much. Everyone's metabolism is different and heck every trip is different (even down to that corner store burrito/"gut-bomb" downed while drivng to the trailhead) …. so YMMV.

ed:gr

I like mine so far also. Though I never had the older version so I cant really compare the 2, but I can say that I like the one I have and it seems to work perfect in a layering system for myself.

Hiked up the Grand Canyon on mine when it was sub 20 degrees a few weeks ago from the Colorado back up the rim. As far as I can tell it works great. Besides I only paid $45 for it which is a great deal and I can put up with the "faults" others find in it.

Stephen, we need more info. (If you were female, i would say, "need more info Steph-a-nie." [old movie reference, childhood favorite]).

Like what layers you were using, how often you opened up, etc. I think as long as one can fully unzip a garment, that can compensate quite a bit for reduced breathability of the fabric.

But, having just used an old, beater thrift store nylon shell at 24 or so degrees to 33 or so degrees, and with a breathabilty rating i would subjectively rate at least twice as breathable as the older Houdini, i would say there can be a big difference when everything is closed up.

I was wearing this in combo with a homemade sleeveless powerdry high efficiency baselayer (so the fabric was advertised on ebay as) shirt i made, with a Pat 4 Cap hoody on top, and a thin 55% merino 45% nylon top on top of that. So i had 3 layers total on my arms, and i could definitely feel the wind and cold at times on my arms at least (and i run warm). It was an easy hike with not much elevation gain or loss, so i was sweating a bit but not doing a lot of intense exertion.

But it worked (very) well for my core, and didn't have to unzip all the way because the material was quite breathable. If i had worn my 2012 Houdini, i'm fairly certain i would have had to fully open up during any higher exertion periods. Granted, if i had brought the Houdini, i probably could have taken off the Merino-synth shirt, or the sleeveless MYOG PPHE shirt and been fine, but i was looking to boost my sleep insulation a little extra too so didn't mind the weights of either of those (which are both in the 4 point oz range).

Anyways, kind of a pointless post on my part, as obviously it worked for you with the conditions and approach you used. There are times when i like the convenience of not having to constantly adjust my system though, but that's just laziness on my part.

It would be interesting to try the new Houdini with a thin, dwr treated fuzzy fleece one side and smooth other, to replicate Paramo type WPB system. Seems like the new Houdini might be just right for that kind of use.

Something to consider Justin: Your thrift store windbreaker, while more breathable, is probably less wind resistant. For most situations a very breathable windshirt is fine. But I know from experience that when standing on the beach is very high winds, a wp/b rain jacket is much warmer than a windshirt. It's all a compromise.

I know, that's what i was trying to point out, and how that can be both an advantage and disadvantage depending. Breathability of course is directly related to wind resistances inversely.

Personally i *tend* to prefer to err on the side of more breathable over less breathable, especially in colder weather, with layered systems.

I was actually a bit inspired to break out the old, worn beater nylon shell after reading the winter trekking site you had shared earlier. Now, if i had been expecting strong, or even moderately strong winds, i would have brought the houdini as a backup.

I'm not sure i would like the newest Houdini, even though some are reporting good experiences with it, except for maybe in a narrow context (like replicating Paramo like WPB system). I do appreciate the feedback either way, and definitely personally respect Stephen M.'s opinion, insight, etc.

I agree with the other posters. In fact I was thinking about this very topic earlier today and was contemplating posting the same opinion as conveyed by OP!

I don't think that the 2013 Houdini is bad at all. However, it is not a direct replacement for the older Houdini so if you had your systems perfectly dialed in for the older one the newer one will not fit into those layering systems the same way. Namely, it is a bit warmer.

Taken separately from experiences with the prior generation, the 2013 Houdini is a fantastic jacket.

Every time I've taken out the Houdini to use on a trip, I've been happy with it. Never wished for a moment that I'd brought an older Houdini.

Hi Justin,

I dont recall ever opening it up on any trips, I only remember what I wore on the two past trips.

2 weeks agao I wore it with a Cap 4 hoody in 35F temps and was very comfortable, this past weekend I wore it at 25-30F with a Cap1 weight base layer, Cap4 hoody and an R1 vest, both times I was carrying a heavy enough pack, I did think I shoudl of brought my Paramo with me.

Thank you for the further info Stephen. Sounds like you run a bit cooler than myself.

"I did think I shoudl of brought my Paramo with me."

With the 2013 Houdini, you could try this and save some weight and increase versatility (over bringing your Paramo and Cap 4 Hoody). Find any one of those thin, hoody polyester fleeces that is fuzzy/brushed on one side and smooth on the other. I've been looking for them lately, and have found them at various places. The Columbia one i bought Becky a little while ago, weighed about 7 to 8 oz and cost about 30 dollars.

Soak in a good DWR water based solution. Wear it over a baselayer with the fuzzy side out and smooth side in. Houdini goes over that.

Voila, you just re-created the Paramo system, and i think the 2013 Houdini would be especially good as a shell for this.

The fleece won't be quite as warm, or quite as breathable as the Cap 4 hoody (speaking from experience) but there shouldn't be a huge difference realistically speaking. Meanwhile, you have both your mid insulation, your lightweight wind jacket, AND your WPB all in one, versatile, very adaptable package.

I'm actually kicking myself now for having bought the expensive Cioch Nikwax Analogy pump liner now that i understand what it's all about and how simple it is to re-create it. Instead of spending 90 dollars, i could have spent 15 to 30…

Anyways, if you happen to try this out, let me know. I suggest trying it out around home first though. That's what i've been doing recently, and so far, so good. I just got back from a walk in the coldish rain, but unfortunately, it's not heavy enough to test more fully.

Good idea Justin on recreating Paramo.

Normally I don't wear as much when moving but was going slow as had gone from 1500ft to 10000ft in 18 hours and needed to pace myself (was also taking Diamox)

Justin, I've seen you post about your DIY paramo set up a few times, I'm very interested. Have you made one yourself and used it? How did it work out?

Hi Justin,

I've not tried it backpacking yet, but i've done some mini tests around home. I just got back from a 10 min. walk in the rain, but unfortunately it's only a bit more than a drizzle right now. I want to test it in some heavy, cold rain.

I use my 2012 Houdini in combo with fuzzy fleece that i soaked in Nikwax DWR water solution.

It just started getting cool in VA a little while ago, and we haven't had much heavier rain while cool, and so i haven't been able to test it as much as i would like, but so far, so good.

And really, having the Nikwax Pump Liner from Cioch, there's nothing magical or particularly special about the fabric. It's just a micro type polyester that's been brushed on one side, which breaks up the fibers into smaller ends. The physics of it says (so i've been reading in various places) that when such differential sized fiber combinations are very hydrophobic, the water will get pushed/repelled from the larger fibers to the smaller fibers and in the case of a pump liner tend to stay on the outside of the fabric (unless there is enough sheer force to push it through the fabric, which can happen in a torrential down pour with driving wind).

The windshirt/jacket is to break and slow down the initial force of the rain drops. Even if it wets out, or the DWR washes out (not as applicable to a Houdini because it has a truly durable DWR, or should), it will still function well enough as long as the the pump liner is still hydrophbic enough.

I wonder how waterproof it really is.
Do you think it's more suited to snowy conditions?

I'm attempting the sierra high route again next summer and I plan on carrying a Houdini and a fleece hoody, because my down jacket was too warm. Maybe I will put this system to the test.

Depends on how you define "waterproof". If you define it in the mainstream, usual American sense of testing a column of water and a certain water pressure and when the water starts to leak through, then Paramo type systems are not waterproof at all.

If you talking more simply of "keeping your skin dry" from outside sources of precipitation, then it will be waterproof enough in all but the heaviest and intense wind driven rains.

Did you read Chris Townsend's articles and posts on it? As he has pointed out a number of times, the beauty of these systems that even if it does wet out some (as it sometimes does), it dries amazingly fast and is still very breathable even when wetted out. Scotland is a great place to test WPB systems, (though it didn't seem so when i was there), and Chris is a very experienced backpacker, kind of Scotland's version of Andrew Skurka except older and thus more experience.

But yes, should be excellent for snow too (not speaking from experience on that that though).

As with anything that involves potential danger, i would first test it out around home before a trip. When you DWR treat a garment, if you're using a washer machine, you really have to make sure that there are no detergent residues in the machine, or the garment first. It seems people all too often over look that, and aren't careful enough, and so they get less than ideal results. That can make a big difference with these systems.

p.s., you could also try this with one of those brushed polypropylene baselayers, but you would have to turn it inside out, and you're still without a hood, and a hood is critical for this. I've thought about trying this as well, as no DWR would be needed, BUT i suspect the polypropylene would be too warm for rain conditions. Brushed Nylon would be awesome though.