Garmin for the semi-luddite

[Ian]

Bill,

I haven't personally used it but Jerry's link for Switchback.com has maps which can be uploaded into a Garmin. There are also other programs like Caltopo which can upload/download waypoints to a Garmin GPS. All germane to the topic.

[William Chilton]

I have successfully loaded maps based on Opencyclemaps onto both a Garmin Etrex 30 and Garmin's Basecamp computer software.

[Hikin’ Jim]

This is an extremely helpful thread. I've always done the map and compass thing and gotten along quite well thank you, but I've been considering joining the 21st century. Mainly, I'd like to be able to save my tracks for later reference and to be able to get accurate locations and mileages.

A SAR guy I know recommended the eTrex 30, and I see it's recommended here as well. I might go for that.

I don't have a smart phone, and I'm a little leery of touch screens for a GPS, I don't think I'll go that route.

HJ
Adventures In Stoving

[Hikin’ Jim]

This is actually the most interesting part of this thread (Topo Maps for GPS's). I've already decided to get a GPS; now I need maps.

I've also had a strong recommendation for vector based maps (from a heavy duty map geek and canyoneer). Makes sense that I'd want something that scales well as I scroll in.

Garmin sells 1:100,000 maps (pretty useless for backcountry nav in my experience) and 1:24,000. It's something detailed like the 1:24k (or similar scale) maps that I want. I'd generally like something more detailed than "intermediate" scale maps (1:50k, 1:62k, 1:63,360), although if they were free, they'd be worth a look. :)

Are there any free downloadable vector based 1:24k (or similar scale) maps available?

HJ
Adventures In Stoving

[Ian]

"Mainly, I'd like to be able to save my tracks for later reference and to be able to get accurate locations and mileages."

That's definitely one of the benefits. Like the recent Thermometer article by Rex, I'm one of those people who like to have data available from past hikes to help me make decisions about gear and capabilities for future hikes. I can do it without the gadgets but the data they provide is hard to beat vs wild speculation.

"Are there any free downloadable vector based 1:24k (or similar scale) maps available?"

Not an answer for you since you don't carry a smart phone and I'm going to have to learn more about vector based maps (assuming as mentioned that more detail pops up as you scroll in) but for the benefit of other readers here's what I do….

I always bring my iPhone as a multi-use item. I do a couple things before a hike.

1) I'll download a large map with GAIA of the area I'm hiking. Big enough to get me home in case I have to bail due to an emergency. As previously mentioned, the iPhone's battery isn't big enough for continuous tracking but it's more than sufficient to plot the occasional coordinate or to see where you are on the map.

2) When I print my Caltopo maps, I'll also save them as a PDF. I email myself the map, pull up the email from my phone, save it onto the phone and make it viewable with my Nook app. I just pulled one up that for no particular reason I saved at 1:30145. I can scroll in to see more detail.

This all sounds kludgy but it works fine for me and remember, I already had the iPhone so my total investment is <$70 for the Geko and accessories and $20 for Gaia and I don't have to subscribe to any plan for my maps. It could have been much less but I purchased some unnecessary accessories in error.

[Hikin’ Jim]

Ian,

It's not so much that more detail pops up, rather that things "scale" better. In other words, instead of things getting pixilated, they stay clear. At least that's what has been described to me.

HJ
Adventures In Stoving

[Charley White]

Mike,
Since you are just now moving your tent from the hotel room to the trail, I wonder how new you are to hiking & map use in general. I can't argue vs mapping GPS units since I haven't gotten one yet, but want to urge to get and use real paper topo maps early on. They will greatly aid the leaning how to translate reality–the dirt under your shoes & adjacent trees–to a mapmaker's (& SAR squad's) graphic/numeric depiction of where you are. I'm intimately familiar with some people who just can't do this spatial translation. I suppose with a good, walked, waypoint route you could push a button & follow a GPS arrow, but IMO it would be unsafe as a start. Far better to get used to "reading" a map first; what it can tell you and how it can suggest routes. The wonder of a map the size of a…map, not just the palm of your hand is the Big Picture it gives. In Utah of the wide-open-vista, you can enjoy that to the maximum.

I find the UTM grid on the map & coordinate reading on the GPS the easiest visual translation and 1,000m a useful unit on the ground. It used to be the compass function was a notorious battery hog. I always carry a real compass, too. But I have a partner here in CA who doesn't even carry that. It's pretty obvious in the wide open spaces which way is which, if you stay tuned into your environment and follow your map.

I've departed on a new mission. If you contain a GPS chip but won't tell me what that says, I ain't carrying you. Grinds me no end. ;)

[Michael Driscoll]

No… Etrex 30
Yes… Etrex 20
I like the high end bike 810 but $$$
But would go with Jim for the 62s by the 24th would be easy to sell… Buy no maps and get the 30$ a year sub until you know more about GPS and what they can and can not do for you and custom maps… Down side heavy, do what I do ask someone in the hiking party if they want to learn how to use a GPS and they carry it… I like the unit for kayaking as it keeps me out of the mpla's and gets me back in the fog…2¢

[Mike W]

>> rather that things "scale" better. In other words, instead of things getting pixilated <<

That's not entirely true. While you can use either vector or raster mapping, how the raster mapping is implemented is what you need to know.

If the map is a single raster image of a map (think of a scanned copy of a hard copy map), then it will pixelate) if the scanning was done poorly, the map detail doesn't change as you zoom in or out. Lines will not scale down (they get fatter as you zoom in). This is the "cheap)" method.

You can also get raster maps that are created with tiled images that are pre-processed at a series of scales. Each scale has unique content that is appropriate for the given scale (so think of it as a bunch of different scaled hard copy maps scanned and present to you as the zoom changes). Google maps are a good example of this.

Vector maps are not images they actually made up of vectors (lines), that run from point to point. Zooming in and out does't effect the line quality because it is always drawing point to point. You only notice it's deficiency when you zoom in close and the point density is too course to display well, which is why vector data has a scale associated with it… The vectors will always draw well but once you zoom in very close you won't see enough points to get a good map representation.

Vector maps will draw more slowly when zoomed way out, raster maps tend to draw faster, especially if they are tile cached per scale.

Vector maps are easily searchable and route-able which is why I like the Garmin maps. I don't know of any free Topo maps that are route-able.

High quality map caches like Google are route-able and searchable and you can get those types for your smartphone but I've not seen any that are available for free for a GPS.

[Hikin’ Jim]

Thank you, Mike W. for that explanation.

HJ
Adventures In Stoving

[Hikin’ Jim]

Michael Driscoll wrote: > No… Etrex 30
Yes… Etrex 20

Michael, can you say more about that? I see several people on this thread that really like the eTrex 30. What makes you prefer the eTrex 20?

HJ
Adventures In Stoving

[Ian]

I'm interested to hear more about Michael's preference of the 20 over the 30.

Personally, I've found that a GPS only altimeter to be highly inaccurate with the ones I've played with (admittedly few) so having an actual barometric altimeter onboard is a plus that I'd personally upgrade for. The wireless option would be handy in some cases.

Edit: I've never played with the 20 or 30 so please correct me if something is different with the 20.

[Bob Gross]

"Personally, I've found that a GPS only altimeter to be highly inaccurate with the ones I've played with (admittedly few) so having an actual barometric altimeter onboard is a plus that I'd personally upgrade for."

It depends. When a GPS receiver calculates your position, the vertical accuracy is generally worse than the horizontal accuracy. At the best, vertical will be 1.5 times horizontal accuracy. At the worst, vertical will be several times worse than that. The variation between best and worst is due to the geometry of the satellites in view in the sky. If you have a lot of satellites in view and they are spread across the sky, then geometry is good. If you have fewer satellites in view and they are clustered together somewhat, then geometry is bad.

Some receivers have both the GPS calculation of altitude and the barometric measurement of altitude. Each has its problems. Should you let barometric steer the GPS calculation, or vice versa? As long as the weather is stable, then the barometer can be very good, but when the weather is changing, then it can be very bad. Some receivers with both types attempt to use heuristics to determine what is really right.

–B.G.–

[Billy Ray]

I have the eTrex 30. On a trip last year my friend set his non-eTrex 30 to GPS altimeter and I set mine to barometric. The two reading were VERY close the entire trip. Like within 50 to 100 feet… well within the error margin for either. And this was in some pretty dramatic canyon and mountain topography.

But here's the other thing: If you have 24k topo maps on board, like I do on my eTrex 30… you don't really need either the gps or the barometric altimeter. Just move the pointer on you GPS map to the closest contour line and up comes the altitude… likely MUCH more accurate that EITHER the gps or the barometric altimeters!!!!

Bill

[Billy Ray]

Also. Regarding the compass function on the eTrex 30… It's pretty much useless for walking a heading with any accuracy… all is give is N, NE, E, SE, S, SW, W, and NW… NO DEGREES!!!!!!!

Sure, know which way is north or NE can be helpful, but if the sun is out and I have a watch I can tell you that without a compass or a GPS.

So the eTrex 30 I figure is REALLY designed for using with the maps loaded. whereas the foreTrex 401 compass does not support maps but does give degrees zero to 360. However, the 401 compass gets confused easily and often needs to be recalibrated… not hard to do, but a PITA.

B

[Mike Gervais]

Charlie thank you for your post. I think it is the advice I've been needing to hear. I've looked at the garmin lineup at REI a couple times in the last week and don't get a warm fuzzy for any of them.

I think I might follow your advice and map-it for a while. I don't want my excursions to be (electro) gadget-centric.

[Michael Driscoll]

Hikin Jim to your ?(BTW I love my Meta 2p)… the etrex line has the 10, 20 & 30… priced at (and lets use REI)110; 180; 270… for my money a gps unit that does not have a sd card or expandable memory is a deal breaker as this is how I load custom maps and sometimes I have a 4gb img file that needs to be read… as for the 30 it has a compass, altimeter, Wireless communication; all good but I never use those features, & do not need them for 90$ more… however if you were going to do the SAR thing it may be almost mandatory to have that feature… so in the Garmin line the E-20 is a sweet spot in my mind for price and functionality it has a lot going for it; so why don't I own one; well just can not get use to the little button that runs one around all the stuff that is inside the gps… however last week I was out and about and got to play with a brand new etrex and the button had a very positive control like no other I have played with in the past; so did they change to a new type I do not know… I own a 62s and just turn off the features I do not use the best I can… I can use it in the snow and on the water the buttons have a positive feel with gloves on (most of the time) yes it is to big & heavy & the battery life could be better; but then I just try and have someone else carry it for me…

to the OP It looks like your going to take Charlies advice, & I ditto that

that being said; besides the obvious reasons to have a GPS; I like them for post trip analysis; I usually never refer to a GPS while on the trip… I like to look back on the track they record in google earth and other topo 24k programs and view the stats how fast, time spent resting, moving… last summer I did Mount Price and Mount Agassiz via Lake Aloha up the slabs of insanity and found it interesting my decisions going x-country and the route I chose up and back… will it make me a better hiker, who knows, it is probably along the lines why I take a camera and never share the pics… both of those tools help me look back on a trip; I like that…

Mike thanks for the thread…

[Hikin’ Jim]

Michael (Driscoll), thanks for that. Several people have suggested that the eTrex 20 is the "sweet spot" in the Garmin line. I'm not sure I need a barometric altimeter in my GPS since I have one in my Suunto watch. I also don't think I need a compass (particularly if it doesn't show degrees) since I usually bring one on any trip.

As far as navigation is concerned, I think I'll still be using a lot of paper maps and terrain association. It really forces one to focus on the terrain. Documentation and post trip analysis are really what I want a GPS for. I tend to share a lot of photos on my two blogs, but I too like to have them to relive the trip. So also is how I envision my use of a GPS (although I wouldn't be adverse to using one in a tough spot, navigationally speaking, like a storm or something).

HJ
Adventures In Stoving
Hikin' Jim's Blog

[Billy Ray]

Jim
I agree with much that you wrote. But bear in mind, if you don't use a GPS a fair amount, you may not have the skills to just turn it on in a pinch and get what you need. At least that's the way it works for my old brain. If I don't use the gadget regularly, I won't remember how to use it when I need it.

Bill D.

[Mike W]

>> If I don't use the gadget regularly, I won't remember how to use it when I need it.<<

That is really true about the new Garmin's. Some of the advanced features are what make me really like my Etrex 20 but trying to remember how to take advantage of those features can be a challenge if not done frequently.

I like the custom map feature a lot, but you have to be able to convert your custom map to the correct format, bring it into Google earth and skew it to the Google earth base and save it as a KML. Then you have to bring it into Base Camp. At that point you can transfer it to your GPS. The good thing is that you can take a PDF map from a Park website that has the trails mapped on it and eventually have that map (and trails) on your GPS with your current location pointer walking the PDF trails… that's a nice feature!

I also like the fact that for $30 you can buy a subscription to Garmin's BirdsEye imagery. It's really nice to have an option to add imagery as an additional basemap on my Etrex 20. I generally have Garmin's Street mapping, Topo and BirdsEye imagery loaded on my Etrex 20. I have a few free ones as well but they are used for special areas and not always loaded.

[Seth R]

Just wanted to cast a vote for the Oregon 450. Found it at Cabelas for $150 (now OOS). I get all the maps I need for free at GPS depot. The unit is incredibly fast and accurate. Get some Sony Enenloops and you are G2G. Learning curve is very easy.

[Jeff McWilliams]

Another second for Charlie's advice.

And if you want to get experience using map and compass, see if there is an orienteering club in your area that runs events. Go to the events.

While a typical orienteering event happens on a smaller scale than a trek through the back country, the map reading and interpreting skills are the same.

Go check out http://www.o-utah.org/ and see what they offer. Draper seems like it should be close to you.

[Stuart R]

>> If I don't use the gadget regularly, I won't remember how to use it when I need it.<<

If you find the interface on the Etrex series less than intuitive, consider the Dakota 10 or 20. Basically an Etrex with a touch screen.

[Mike Gervais]

Thanks for a very informative thread.

I'm soon to lose my discount opportunity on a Garmin purchase so ordered the etrex 20 while the getting was good. I intend to use it with map and compass. With experience I'll find which system becomes a back up to the other.

[Matt Weaver]

I have the etrex 20 and like it, though I certainly don't use it a ton when I'm out with it. It has however saved my bacon a few times. I like to study maps and find old trails to get to otherwise relatively popular destinations, taking the "backroads" so to speak instead of the common routes. This often takes me through overgrown and indecipherable trails that some times give me difficulty in locating myself on the map. Before etrex I used a topo gps app on my phone; once it popped right up and I was able to easily locate myself and confirm that I was on the right path. Another time it couldn't locate and I had a bit of a panic attack that lead to a leap of faith and ultimately all ended well and I reached my destination, through a bit of luck and a bit of educated decision making. Since then I've carried the etrex which has never failed to quickly show my position, which gives me great peace of mind. I make it sound like I get lost all the time; I really don't! But due to the unmarked nature of a lot of my hikes, I do value the peace of mind offered by being able to quickly confirm my coordinates before I get way off track. 9 trips out of 10 I would feel comfortable leaving the gps at home but I take it along anyways because ish can and has happened to me, so the relatively low weight is a welcome addition. And it's kind of fun to have recorded documentation of some of my outings. If I were hiking on well marked trails all of the time, I would likely just stick to the physical maps.

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