Results of comparing r-value, cost and weight to Downmat vs. Synmat

There seems to be some debate about how effective the reflective aspect of the RR solar is if used in a combination of pads. So the safe bet is to downgrade the R-rating of that pad if used that way.

Not using a CC pad will reduce your bulk considerably.

Using a CC pad as part of your system gives you a backup in case of failure of the inflatable pad that you are unable to fix – but how often does that occur? It also gives you a handy lunchtime pad you can throw down on a rock or the snow with abandon – very nice.

Synmat is less likely to have any issues doe to moisture getting into the pad (like if you blow it up by mouth.

I had a synmat the non ul with pump go flat on me on a sept trip to the winds with my first night being in the low to mid teens I had to blow it up 2-3 times per night. And its a lot of fun trying to find a leak in a lake when its cold. I never found the leak even at home in the tub. Exped stood behind it well even gave me a ul model cause they were out of other. The experience changed me for ever and I always bring at least a 1/2 length ccf with me now

…..which would you choose, Door #1, Door #2 or Door #3?

I have a Synmat UL7 and it has been a fantastic addition to my sleep system.
Light. Durable and very comfy.

Your choices seem to be going for higher R values. But the exped line has been a great product for me. We own several insulated and non-insulated Exped sleeping pads. I even used the Synmat this summer and since insulation works both ways I sleeved much better this summer.

I pair mine with a tyvek ground sheet or sometimes my Lawson 1/8" foam pad. Used it down to about 20*, no snow, on tyvek with no issues.
Plus any natural padding, pine needles or leaves just make your sleep area that much nicer.

Kevin what do you mean by insulation works both ways

If all things were equal, which they never are, would the durability of the Downmat 9 M exterior be the trump card by which to choose?

It would seem its 150D/75D would be much less likely to puncture than the 20D exterior of the Synmat UL 9M and Downmat UL 7M.

Insulation keeps the cold ground from robbing heat for your sleeping body.
In summer or warm months it helps to moderate the temp between your body and the ground.

While this is purely subjective it, IMHO works. I sleep much better on my Synmat in warm weather than on my Exped basic air mat.

As far as insulation working oth ways, try setting by a fire on a cold night in your puffy jacket.
Not sure about others but I periodically check the front on my jacket for high temps. The insulation blocks some of the heat from the fire so that the outside of insulation gets much hotter than the inside.

This is my .02 and while I am watching reruns of Mythbuster's I am in no way a scientific expert. :)

"In summer or warm months it helps to moderate the temp between your body and the ground."

Kevin, do you mean that the mat not only keeps you warm on cold ground but would also keep you cool on hot ground? I think you're right, but I've never encountered or attempted to camp on hot ground. The ground is certainly warmer than the air at night in many places, but I've never felt a need to be protected against heat coming from the ground, as you suggest. I guess it might happen somewhere.

I have a not had any problems with the 30d fabric on the UL7 down or syn bit I don't have more than 30 nights on either. I do have an 8 to 10 year old down mat 7 with the 75d/150d fabric that is bomber. Unfortunately it has developed a slow leak that I can't find. I had it in the tub last night and couldn't find anything and then slept on it and it was half flat by morning. Ok if you are on your back but no good for side sleeping. I suspect it's a valve.

Having said all that, I would opt for the lightest setup with some redundancy even though a half inch of ccf isn't enough on its own in sub freezing temps on an elevated and uninsulated shelter floor if your primary pad goes flat.

Thanks guys. For better or for worse (sounds like I'm about to get married), I've decided on the Downmat 9 XP M.

The driving force was that I'd rather be too warm than too cold. It was tempting to go with the Synmat 9 and layer in a RR, but, in the end, warmth triumphed. Moreover, it just seemed that the 150D/75 fabric would be more robust.

So, for those of you far more experienced than I, what pad would you put below the Downmat 9? A GG 1/8" Thinlight? An EMS 1/2" CCF? Other?

"Using a CC pad as part of your system gives you a backup in case of failure of the inflatable pad that you are unable to fix – but how often does that occur?"

In my experience, once, on the first night of a three night trip, in February in the White Mountains of NH. Very, very unpleasant.

John that's the problem I had with the original synmat it was a delamination problem and I was lucky that it was under warranty I hope yours is also but I fear not. I'm trying hard to like the thermarest products more for the better warranty but its hard exped has got the comfort figured out better. Two years ain't much for warranty for the prices and exped was known for this issue. I have yet to hear of delamination problems with the ULs knock on wood. The non UL exped mats are warranted for five years I believe.

Exped equates the Downmat UL 7 ~R 5.9 to -13 F. Even if that's conservative, I wouldn't rule out being comfortable with appropriate top insulation at ~0-5 F.

Are you anticipating temps well south of 0?

Don't get me wrong, as a quilt maker, I usually found people's problems with being cold more related to insufficient bottom insulation, but that was usually because they were using a very thin CCF pad, a torso pad with nothing under their legs, or the original NeoAirs, which barely were appropriate for 40 degs, let alone the 30 degree target most wanted in a quilt. Even still, very few people that didn't have ~0% body fat and insane metabolisms were anything less than toasty.

My point, is that you may be deferring to supreme overkill. Usually, I'd recommend targeting average temps with your bottom insulation and maybe go a bit conservative with your top insulation if you're certain you're a very cold sleeper.

If you massively over-insulate, you'll find yourself sweating profusely, regardless of venting (since you can't completely uncover yourself in frigid temps, and any covered section will sweat) and you'll be constantly delofting your top insulation, which depending on moisture loss, will potentially exacerbate your likely dehydration from hiking, and cause massive loss of top insulation efficiency. Less of course if you're using synthetics, which I assume you're not in these temps.

No matter how much any of us may like to be able to just "plan for the worst" and have one "no matter what happens" sleep system, it's not realistic, and it can be dangerous. Of course, if all you're gonna do is over nighters, you can make just about anything work for one night, so ymmv.

*shrug*

FWIW, as a contingency plan for a leaking Exped Downmat UL7, I simply carry some tenacious tape and mini tube of seam grip. You can patch and immediately use it before it dries with no air leakage. I have done this.

Derrick

The exped patch kit works very well, when the directions are followed. I think that including adhesive on the patches was a mistake on exped's part, as people use them without the glue. Following their directions (watch the video) I have patched a badly torn pad I bought used.

The exped patch kit is good, the REI patch kit is better. The REI kit has larger patches, big enough to cover a larger tear.

Be patient and meticulous during the repair, and it will hold well.

Do carry atleast a small piece of CCF. I carried a piece equivalent in size to 1-1.5 panels of a z-rest on my last winter trip. That little rectangle was super great, used it to kneel or sit on in the snow, stand on while removing boots, and wrapped around a fragile piece of equipment in the pack. I was carrying the green memory foam type product from walmart, but I think the stiffer blue foam or a thermarest foam might be better. Carrying a torso sized piece would give you some backup. I think you will be fine if you just sweep for sharps before laying down your groundsheet, and making sure that you yourself dont have any sharp spots like a knife clip.

I have found Exped warranty to be beyond that stated. They replaced a baffle blownout synmat ul7 with little more than a photo, and the production lot number on it. Afterwards they had me destroy and dispose of the damaged pad. It seems like they consider internal damage a worksmanship issue, rather than one of abuse. Anecdotally, it does appear that the downmats are put together stronger in the baffles. I have seen a few accounts of the synmat UL pads blowing out a baffle, but only the syn UL line. This makes sense, with the downs being heavier despite down being more efficient of an insulator.