Sharing (Or Not) Locations and Logistics on the Web.

"A culture in which there are circles, inner circles, and inner-inner circles, all privy to different amounts of information. A culture in which keeping your mouth shut about conditions and locations is pretty standard. Many a fight occurs over this."

Sounds like knowing which bars outside Fort Bragg have the best looking women – the ones who like soldiers….

But seriously, Nick G. has been preaching this for a long time. No, you're not a pretentious, arrogant, and selfish A$$hole for not wanting to share your spots of solitude and wonder. You might be for other things, I don't know, I haven't met you, but not for this.

Unfortunately, as many of us have seen far too often, people destroy places. The more people know about a really cool spot, the better chance of it being trashed. Send the masses to Yellowstone. Keep your special places to yourself and close, trusted friends.

Yeah, Nick and I have talked about this at length.

Fortunately for him, all of his special places are up some God-forsaken, parched, 110 degree canyon full of rocks and thorns. People wouldn't go even if he did share.

How about you PM me some Fort Bragg details Doug?

I spent part of the day wandering around a wildlife refuge with my kids. It would not have been difficult to fill a contractor bag with all of the garbage we saw during our wanderings. I try to pick up all the garbage I see on a trail; usually return to my truck with a few to several water bottles and other goodies.

Most people suck and you're wise to keep some of these hikes secret. Just make sure that you don't upload any pictures that still have a geo tag embedded into it.

I agree.

You know what they say, "If you want to destroy a beautiful place, make it a National Park." The hordes will ruin it. 4 million visitors a year in Yosemite. John Muir is turning over in his grave, no doubt.

Besides, if you blabber all the great places in a public forum you are not doing them any favor. Half (maybe more) of the joy is in discovery. When you tell people of these hidden places, you destroy not only the place, but the fun of discovery.

I know of Anasazi ruin sites in Utah that I won't even tell my friends how to get there. If I tell them, they'll tell others, who will tell others and others and others. Before you know it all the potshards and corn cobs are gone that the place is trammeled with foot prints and the place ends up in a guide book.

Been there done that.

Bill D

Yeah, kinda, maybe. There are a few pockets here and there, lakes with no established trail, etc. The real factor is a stack of wicked switchbacks and something more than a couple hours day hike. Sweat and blisters are the sieve for solitude.

Not sharing is fine as long as you don't post anything at all. I always laugh at people who post a picture heavy trip report but decline to say where it was because they want to "protect" the place. Google "Streisand effect" and KYBMS.

Wow, never even thought of geo tags in pictures. I don't think my camera does that, but I'm so tech-stupid I wouldn't know for sure. I assume this is primarily on wired, gps enabled devices like smart phones?

So I think that's the new policy then. General area info but no specifics unless asked privately.

I know what you're saying Todd. Anyone who was truly motivated might be able to figure out pictures. But if it was that secret, I wouldn't post anything at all.

What I wrestle with here is the desire to share. I love reading the reports of others. I presume we all do. I suppose my dilemma is how to share certain things without blowing them up through the use of simple, internet search terms.

BTW, I have already received 7 emails and PMs asking the location of the trip report I posted this morning.

I have two special places in Yosemite National Park where I've been leading people starting in 1979. Each of them is off-trail, somewhat uphill, and nobody stumbles in there by accident. They have been renamed as the Old Secret Lake and the New Secret Lake.

–B.G.–

"I assume this is primarily on wired, gps enabled devices like smart phones?"

Nope, cameras too. Here's an article from 2010 that talks about geotagging cameras (and it wasn't new then): http://reviews.cnet.com/2795-6501_7-423.html

These days I wouldn't doubt (but don't know) that most cameras include this 'feature.'

"What I wrestle with here is the desire to share."

While I always enjoy your pictures, what I most appreciate about your 'trip reports' is your interactions with those you're hiking with – Adan or your kids – and what you're thinking when you're out there. Those things are 'place independent'.

"So I think that's the new policy then. General area info but no specifics unless asked privately."

I think Dale has a very good point about sweat and blisters filtering out the masses, although my favorite places are considerably more than a day hike away and usually a few miles off trail. So, I don't feel particularly concerned about them being overrun by hordes of littering morons, and have few reservations about writing up a trip report about some of them with enough information for an experienced hiker to have a go at them if they wish. For the few undiscovered gems that are not quite as remote, I would have to agree with Craig, Nick, et al. It's sad that we end up feeling this way, but in this increasingly over populated and ill mannered world……..

Yeah, a mixed bag. I have benefitted greatly from what people have shared with me, but there are places I won’t mention on the internet. Too attractive, too sensitive, etc. Surprisingly, there are some nice places that are near roads that haven’t gotten trampled.

Kind of a drag when bushcrafters get a hold of something. Maybe there are responsible ones out there, but I haven’t seen ’em yet. Brush shelter I spotted a couple of weeks ago. Five minutes from a road head. Not appropriate in my opinion.

HJ
Adventures in Stoving

"Sweat and blisters are the sieve for solitude."

Well said Dale, I've been to plenty of those places. Tom Kirchner showed me a few good ones this summer. We could post detailed coordinates but still very few would go.

"Surprisingly, there are some nice places that are near roads that haven't gotten trampled."

True enough Jim. We share the same backyard; I also know of a few spots that would be overrun pretty quickly if word got out. Amazing that a "secret" could even exist outside of one of the largest cities on Earth, but they're out there.

"I assume this is primarily on wired, gps enabled devices like smart phones?"

Doug covered this but if your camera has this capability, they usually go overboard advertising it as a feature.

"What I wrestle with here is the desire to share. I love reading the reports of others."

Same here. I need to quintuple my blog subscriptions as I really love reading a good trip report. I really wish there was more TR activity here on BPL. It seems that the way you covered your TR today is fine. You narrowed down the location to Los Padres but not enough that people can overload a single trail without having an intimate knowledge of the area.

"Sweat and blisters are the sieve for solitude."

Not necessarily. Just compare the number of people on the JMT in 2013 to 1980.
Plenty of sweat and blisters on the JMT…

Bill D.

Funny thing is that I post some pretty detailed trip reports, reports with fairly good (I think) :) route descriptions and detailed photos like:

Then someone will write and ask where Lodgepole Saddle is even though (to me at least) the named peaks all around it pretty well place the saddle. I’ve gone back and retrofitted TR’s with map links just to spell things out.

Apparently there are a lot of people out there for whom route finding is a lost art. :)

The other thing I notice is that relatively few people read my blog posts/TR’s. Typically, I’m getting less than 100 hits per day and looking at the traffic analysis, a lot of those hits are people using search terms that brought them somewhere they really didn’t want to go, like “ski”. I mention “ski hut” in one post, but skiers coming to my site aren’t really interested.

Still, I guess even if 30 or 40 hits a day were people actually interested in my site, that would be a lot. Most of what I post is main trail stuff. A little bit of unmarked/unknown trails that are close by. Not much if at all on historic trails that might get screwed up. I even took one down that Nick G. (from BPL) chastened me on. :)

HJ
Adventures in Stoving

It depends, I have often shared advice on places like Grayson Highlands, these places are already well known and I'm just helping a friend or BPL member get the most out of the experience by hitting the prettiest spots.

I sort of draw the line at off trail routes and/or rarely used trails. Anyone can look at Google earth and know a particular mountain range is pretty. But giving them the GPS coordinates to the best spots is another matter, might as well blaze a trail.

My camera doesn't do geotagging and I've heard its sucks batteries dry so I'd keep it turned off if I had it.

John Muir willingly shared all of his favorite spots–except what he Called Shadow Lake. He kept it secret for as long as he could because he was afraid that if people discovered it, they would turn it into a summer camp. He visited it quietly over the years until finally sheep herders found it, coming down from Tuolumne Meadows. Then he published an article about it, which ends with the sheepherders–he writes, "the moneylenders have entered the temple".

We know Shadow Lake as Lake Merced. So there's that.

On the other hand, I find the whole "other people have also seen my secret spot and now it's ruined" thing puzzling. I understand that people in this thread are writing about their "secret" spots that they wish to protect from ruinous crowds of other people who won't respect them the way they do…certainly this can happen…Look at Lake Merced…but how much of this involves the romance of the 'pristine', because rarely seen, spot that retains its wildness precisely because few people look at it? we like to imagine that our favorite spots are our own. Rarely seen, except by ourselves. Somehow, the idea of other people having been to these spots makes them less special. But I wonder. All those eyes looking at the Grand Canyon haven't worn it down an inch.

Sharing beauty doesn't necessarily ruin it. Granted, bushcrafters may ruin it.

The way I look at is if you have spent a lot of time finding a "secret" place, you might was well keep it secret so it doesn't become overrun. I have posted a few trips with detailed maps, but few seem interested due to the logistical challenges — of course I knew that would happen. Craig has gone with me on some of those trips, and I know he has his own personal favorites.

If someone has done all the hard work to find the gems, then others can do it too. For every great secret trip I have put together, there are dozens of not so great trips — but to be honest, just getting out into the wilderness is always good — unless you happen to run into large numbers of people. Sometimes I think there are hikers who like to see large groups of people on their trips.

Earlier this year BPLer Chad Eagle and I did one of the most spectacular loops in Joshua Tree I know of, which included a reliable water source. Actually the loop is so obvious if you have good knowledge of the park, which requires time hiking off trail to familiarize yourself. It is very unlikely anyone has ever done this loop. If I posted the details it would end up in some idiot's trail guide and would soon be a popular trail. So I am not going to tell anyone where it is; although I have invited Craig to go because I know he won't broadcast it.

I know I put some people off with my so-called attitude. But think about it — if you spend time researching using only maps and come up with a great trip without help from others, don't you think you will feel a greater sense of achievement, adventure, or whatever emotion or sense of accomplishment such a trip would give you? Don't you think such a trip would be more rewarding than posting, "Help me plan an awesome trip?" I don't post these kinds of trip reports for my ego or bragging rights, but to encourage others to apply the same principles in creating their personal trips.

And anyone can do this if they want too. This year I hiked all over the US in places I have never been to before. With a little work I found some real gems — some even near big cities — and I didn't ask a single person for help, or duplicate someone's trip report. Although I feel a little guilty about the stealth trip near Naperville, IL :) — I might have broken a few dozen ordinances, but I didn't check. I learned a while back that if you put on a wrinkled Cuben poncho, people, including law enforcement, tend to avoid you.

I do the same thing with my camper. We have secret places we can camp on a holiday weekend and be completely alone. Of course if I posted the locations of these places they would no longer be isolated. I don't feel guilty about it, as it has taken me over 30 years to accumulate my secret camping spots.

Point is, if you keep them secret they will remain secret because 99% of the population, for one reason or another, is not going to make the effort to find their own little pieces of heaven.

BTW, I am going hiking in Louisiana in a couple of weeks — any advice on alligators?

Depends on how difficult it is to get to a place. If it's something just off the beaten track, easily accessible, then hell no don't post it!
If it takes some buswhacking, rock scrambling, river wading, poison oak filled adventure to get there, then sure… post it.

I've posted a few trip reports from my canyon rambling adventures in Big Sur, but those trips are kind of beyond the comfort level of most hikers, not really beyond their skill level, just comfort level. If anyone can haul their ass up to the Window in Big Sur, that's the kind of person I wouldn't mind seeing out there and chatting with.

On the other hand, it's nice going into an area that yields no search results in google. You never know what you will find.

"Point is, if you keep them secret they will remain secret because 99% of the population, for one reason or another, is not going to make the effort to find their own little pieces of heaven. "

Nick! Are you trying to say that since you found some gems and enjoy them without the crowds, you don't want to give them up to everyone else? How selfish. You should have to share them with everyone.

;)

"BTW, I am going hiking in Louisiana in a couple of weeks — any advice on alligators?"

Nick, do you mean a recipe?

–B.G.–

No, not sure if I should be worried — black bears don't worry me.

Nick we swam in rivers that had gators when I worked at a Therapy camp. They weren't real thick though. They do come up on land just be aware.

Personally I'd look at renting a kayak or canoe you could probably see more that way and you could actually get closer to a gator. Course you'd see more people boating which I know you won't like. Its probably hunting season there and there will be a LOT more people hunting then in CA, I'd wear orange.