SUL and UL: Seeking Converts

> I gotta say that this is pure horsesh*t. You can go
> UL (6-7 lb baseweight) just as cheaply as "normal" gear.

If someone is starting from scratch… yes, UL can be as cheap or cheaper than heavy-weight approach. But many people we encourage are already fully equipped with heavyweight gear. Continuing to go heavy weight has NO apparent cost. Switching will cost something.

Actually, if their heavy-weight gear is pretty new, and high quality, it is sometimes possible to make the transition for very little money thanks to ebay. The challenge if for folks to feel comfortable enough with the light weight option to actually get rid of the heavier item. If a persons gear is older, it might not be worth selling and it will be total cost of the new item. For example, I still own the 7lb "backpacking" tent because it was too old and worn to be worth selling.

Something else to keep in mind is that even a small amount of money might seem like a lot. There are a lot of people who only go backpacking a few times a year. Once these folks have made an investment into gear, they aren't inclined to tinker much because the impact of the extra weight is infrequent, and for them, manageable. This is especially true of people whose money is tight and have other places they would rather make their investments.

–mark

i just pass the word along whenever i stop to talk to someone on the trail. it's usually a hiker asking me about my small pack (and my golite race isn't even that small!).

just the other weekend i was hiking the black forest trail (42 miles in 28 hours) and passed a group of backpackers with packs that looked ready for a summit attempt on everest! they said hello and we chatted for a bit and they balked when i said i had hiked 20 miles the previous day and had already put in 16 miles today. i spent about four or five minutes just telling them how easy it is to start dropping weight. the teenagers in the group looked at me like i was a weirdo and didn't really pay attention but the adults seemed pretty impressed with the possibilities. hopefully they'll lighten up a bit for their next foray but who knows…

anyhow, i just tell everyone that i hike or backpack with about how i lightened up when they ask how i can carry a little "daypack" for a weekend trip.

that said, i agree that only a handful of people will ever convert by word of mouth. getting the scouts involved is probably your best bet for widespread change. it's a large enough group to be influential to the masses and also the participants are young enough that they are open to change. i second the idea of a DVD about "lightening up" that could be distributed to scout troops with some easy recommendations to getting started. excellent thread.

A lot of good discussion here, but back to the original question…

I convert people to UL by using envy (hee, hee, hee)! Everyone who has backpacked with me lately has shown up with something (or several somethings) lighter than the previous time. And I don't have to volunteer one word about my gear – they learn by observation.

Here in Japan there has been a small but growing number of writers, retailers, bloggers, and outdoor enthusiasts who have been actively promoting UL and SUL ideas. Japanese are always cautious and slow to change, but once they take a look at something things change like wildfire. Just last week this magazine/ catalogue was published, as a way to get people to try UL:

It is very effective. Basically it is a 260-page commercial catalogue with pages and pages of hundreds of products sold by a number of companies, including some stores, who teamed up with “Yama-to-Keikoku”, the largest hiking magazine in the country (which has an average of 300 pages and far less advertising than American magazines) to produce the catalogue. Interspersed are all sorts of articles, from trip reports to how-to essays to historical information (BPL gets mentioned, as is Ray Jardine) to interviews. Unfortunately not one of the cottage industry items is shown, which just shows you how difficult it is to get away from the better known companies and conventional ideas. Still, it’s a start. With the avid readership of the Japanese public this catalogue is sure to get noticed. The articles and abundant display of colorful products will be sure to attract the outdoor crowd looking for new fashions!

I wonder if it would be possible for the cottage industry people in the States (and anyone and anywhere else for that matter) to get together to produce such a catalogue and, as earlier mentioned, video. I think there has to be more visual examples of how things are done, with actual views of people out in the wilderness using the stuff so that people can see that it is possible. BPL UK broadcasts podcasts (Ryan Jordan is one of the interviewees) and just started offering this tarp video on how to erect tarps. And of course there is Gossamer Gear’s wonderful Ultralight Makeover DVD.There is also Lynne Wheldon’s series of ultralight backpacking videos (a name I haven’t seen in a long time). When I first bought the BPL “Lightweight Backpacking and Camping” book one of the things that had me very excited was the series of photos on the cover that showed various tarping techniques that Ryan uses…inside there are a good number of pages visually shoing alternative methods for tarping that I thought were very handy, especially since I was still very doubtful about my ability to use tarps. Just like Will Rietveld’s great use of photos to show how items are used and made. At times “a pciture is worth a thousand words” is very true. The gallery page on Henry Shire’s website was invaluable for instilling confidence in using the products; actually seeing other people use them in real places made a big difference for me. One of the frustating things about looking at the Mountain Laurel Designs page is not being able to see more things in use. Those glorious mountains in the back are not just pretty pictures… people yearn to see those places and showing your products in use in them does a lot to make the attractiveness and reliability of the products real.

And of course there are all the websites and blogs that have influenced me over the years, some of which, like Michael Connick’s ultralight backpacking page, which was one of the pages to pioneer UL information on the internet, are no longer available. The problem with this information is that it is scattered all over the place and, unless you know what you are looking for, hard to find. Here’s a list of some (some are just links down memory lane, and are no longer operating, like Ryan’s old Yellowstone webpage):

http://home.bresnan.net/~swultralight/
http://www.adventurealan.com/home.htm
http://www.UltralightBackpacker.com/
http://www.monmouth.com/~mconnick/
http://www.monmouth.com/~johno/
http://sgtr0ck.tripod.com/index.html
http://www.thru-hiker.com/
http://www.backpackinglight.com/
http://fig.cox.miami.edu/Faculty/Tom/personal/bookmarks4.html
http://www.imrisk.com/
http://rodneyslab.tripod.com/
http://biofilm.eps.montana.edu/~backpacking/
http://members.aol.com/CMorHiker/backpack/AddlSites.html
http://www.centerwalk.com/index.html
http://www.cyberturf.com/tornado/
http://onestep4me.tripod.com/
http://members.tripod.com/halbertri/
http://www.pcta.org/jmt/kirby/index.html
http://www.rayjardine.com/index.shtml
http://www.backpackinglight.com/index/article.asp?did=17
http://www.crosswinds.net/~bikerdave/shelter.html
http://www.speakeasy.org/~krk/travels/backpacking/backpackingFrames.html
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/rwgross/ultralig.htm
http://www.albionsmo.com/pr-backpacking.asp
http://www.natworld.com/ars/pages/back_issues/2001_text/0401_text/ultra.html
http://backpacking.net/
http://seattlep-i.nwsource.com/getaways/070496/litepix_top.html
http://seattlep-i.nwsource.com/getaways/102998/gear29.html
http://www.wanderingtheworld.com/
http://members.tripod.com/halbertri/tarps.htm
http://www.sheltoweehikes.com/
http://www.theplacewithnoname.com/hiking/sections/gear/shelter.htm
http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~acjohns/index.html
http://www.ultralight-hiking.com/photography.html
http://members.aol.com/cmorhiker/backpack/
http://www.geocities.com/jugglebutton/hiking/gear.html
http://www.mindless.ca/links/index.htm
http://www.newsushi.net/
http://www.woodsdrummer.com/
http://www.backpacker.com/challengetheeditor/0,4272,,00.html
http://sheltoweehikes.com/
http://www.nimblewillnomad.com/
http://www.trailjournals.com/
http://www.thru-hiker.com/
http://www.oanoutdoors.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi
http://www.treehanger.com/
http://members.tripod.com/gohike/index.html
http://philjgold.home.mindspring.com/htmls/bakpackg.html
http://biofilm.eps.montana.edu/~backpacking/commentary/19991006_ultra-vs-light.htm
http://friends.backcountry.net/m_factor/index.html
http://www.barefooters.org/
http://www.barefooters.org/hikers/
http://www.bare-foot.co.nz/accommodation
http://www.newsushi.net/
http://my.voyager.net/~jacobjans/siler/gearlist.html
http://www.backpackinglight.com/
http://www.centerwalk.com/source/info.html
http://www.appalachiantrail.org/hike/thru_hike/prepare.html
http://www.fallingwater.com/at97/day022.htm
http://hikinghq.net/
http://users.sisna.com/swultralight/
http://www.datasync.com/~wksmith/
http://users.sisna.com/swultralight/
http://members.tripod.com/gohike/trail_at02/newgear.html
http://www.wildernessoutings.com/
http://www.bushwalking.org.au/FAQ/FAQ_Ultralightweight.htm
http://www.backpack45.com/
http://www.whiteblaze.net/index.php?$session%5Bsessionurl%5D
http://home.bresnan.net/~swultralight/Gear_Lists.htm
http://royrobinson.homestead.com/index.html

Wow… that's one heck of a long list of UL sites. Thanks.

There are more, of course, but these were immediately available as a copy/ paste. You don't think I'd actually sit down and write that out, do you?

Anyway, they certainly did a lot for me in promoting ultralight backpacking.

>> What can the small manufacturers … do to spread the word, educate and bring more converts to the Light?

Improve product availability

(e.g., " We are about 8 weeks in backorders on all items.")

Sean Perry, going "over the hill" is not that difficult. Been doing that all my life. Moved away from the madness of the Bay Area to Scotts Valley to commute to San Jose everyday. It is possible to come over at 5 pm. Done that. Or hey just come on the weekends, Downworks is open then too. Just a mention, they make great down products too!!!

Miguel, where can I find that magazine, Ultralight Backpacking? I'll check ICI Sports of course, do the normal booksellers have it as well?
The cover photo choices are interesting; light by most people's standards, Thermarest 3, Leki Ti, Granite Gear, Trangia.
I think BPL members would choose something like a Thinlight, Carbon poles, a golite Jam2 and a soda can stove..

Thanks for that great UL link list!

My thought when I saw the magazine cover: almost everything is foreign (American)! When UL finally catches on in Japan, I bet the Japanese will come up with lots of clever miniaturizations — to the benefit of all.

Brett, you know, I live out in the middle of nowhere in Chiba and there is no book store where I am. I just happened to stop by a bookstore in Hatchobori station on the Ginza line and saw it there. But I think most bookstores should have it in the magazine racks next to the Yama-to-keikoku and Gakujin magazines. Then there is always the fourth floor of Kinokuniya in Shinjuku. They have lots of outdoor magazines. And since the magazine is sponsored by ICI Sports perhaps they have them at the cashier counter.

Ben, yeah, it’s a lot of American stuff. But that’s to be expected, since the Americans started the UL movement long before everyone else and have had time to develop a lot of products along that line. Other people are just catching up. Still, the Japanese tend to prefer European designs and the extra attention to manufacturing quality there. Montane, Hilleberg, Millet, Aigle, Haglofs, Scarpa, Camp, Exped, Mammut, Fjallraven, Artiach, Deuters, Eider, Yeti are just a few of the companies that sell unusually well here. Eider is one company that I find strange more people in America don’t talk more about.

Ill try ICI and Kinokunia. Gakujin is one of my favorites to look through.
I checked out Eider for the first time; I don't think they advertise much on US websites because I had never heard of them. The Ladakhi shirt seems like a nice alternative to capilene, and the Speedtrailer really has an interesting lacing system to say the least; but I think all those external laces would get caught on passing twigs, roots, etc.. with disasterous consequences, especially when running. The tread "knobs and crampons" are a little like the Golite shoe concept I think; not to say one copied the other; it's sort of an obvious idea.

I too just checked out the Eider website.

I agree with the general observation that European and Japanese consumers care more — and are willing to spend more — for high quality design, materials, and workmanship.

American consumers are happier with "OK to pretty good" products — at mass-market prices. Most European prices scare us.

Some of the research is free

http://www.outdoorindustry.org/research.php

Interesting to see their side

Recommend you look at: State of the Industry 2006
Search the PDF for the term 'light'

this is a good read and possible future trends…

Last Child in the Woods: Saving Our Children from Nature-Deficit Disorder

by Richard Louv

here's a review…

This was a very well responded to thread. Thanks for all the ideas. I think I can take a few of the most popular ideas and take a shot at moving them forward.

I've been a little late to this forum but I have a few ideas I haven't seen so far if I'm not mistaken.

One of the first benefits and problems to running a company like MLD, is the incredibly narrow range of consumers. It obviously works for Leica, the camera company that somehow can price its manual heavy telephoto lenses much higher than any of the more "advanced" image stabilized and so on lenses. There are only a select number of people who will by a cuben fiber poncho tarp, but then again the big companies haven't even heard of the poncho tarp or cuben fiber, so you have a very low competition market, where very few products are similar to other companies, and so people buy things on merit rather than spiffy brand names and names for stylized feature sets. MLD offers great affordable ideas, but it obviously needs to be recognized, I myseld never heard of it until I found Backpacking Light.

Try and get your company on the backpacking.com gear searcher. It will blow people's minds when they find out how light it is, and if you combine products, like a tarp + bug bivy option for cheap, you can say that you have a better solution to the double wall tent, by making the useful vestibules of regular tents the main part of the system but still have bug and rain protection at a price competitive to the MSR microzoid and the atrocious Mountain Hardwear Waypoint. If you could get an article with a magazine like Outside or Backpacker, where you "convert" a writer to the light side, and have a trip from the 5 – 8 lb base weight and go down to the 30*s, people will take notice.

From a product point of view, the only real thing people are worried about is safety and warmth. One of the few people I know who know about UL backpacking referred to it as "the coldest night of my life". By offering quality light quilts, COMFY pads, and maybe even ultralight survival or first aid kits and repair kits, either by links to other companies or as products, people would feel a lot better about buying more affordable less durable equipment.

Recruit Bill Bryson as an ambassador…the man is made of publicity! If he can sell a million copies of a miserable book about not walking the AT, he can sell anything. And he most of the book moaning about how heavy his pack was!
Get him out there again with a bunch of sensible gear, having given him a breif crash course in how to use it, and see if he writes something more cheerful this time…

He'd never do it…but I do find the thought amusing.

I wrote an article a few months ago when I pitched an idea for a column in which I wrote about a typical day as a camping specialist in REI. I'm not including the full article (I'm still hoping the more fully fleshed out article will appear in a future print magazine), but I pointed out the need to "match the mood" of many customers.

Many look at me as a nut case who wants to get them killed if I offer up very light or ultralight products. You can very quickly tell that customers want no part of the UL community and regard your offer of knowledge the same way many would regard missionaries from some little known religion knocking on their door.

Some want to lighten up a bit after carrying too much and are happy to see lighter options available in a brick and mortar store, but aren't willing to make the leap of faith to online/cottage gear purchases or MYOG.

A few are more than willing to walk the path of the unknown to the cottage industry and UL backpacking. But they are the dramatic minority.

Could I offer a clinic on UL hiking at REI. Only a watered down version will gear available through REI. On my TRT and JMT hikes this past Summer, none of my big four came from REI. A ULA pack, SMD tarptent, homemade down quilt and GG Nitelite pad. This would not go over so well in a clinic at my store. I COULD work it in with a clinic on hiking the TRT or JMT, so this approach would work. I could also offer up many lightweight REI-available products and quitely add in a "cottage gear" counterpart (which I am trying to accomplish BTW). But pitching cottage gear items at a box store is a touchy at best, and could strain relationships with my managers.

Instead, I often bring in my new gear to show colleagues in the store break room and educate them this way. This has inspired a few to buy UL items, so they and I can offer real world experience to the small number of folks who truly want to go a light as possible.

To reach a broader audience locally, I'm contacting the Middle Tennessee Council of the BSA to offer counselling and clinics to local troops on lighterweight backpacking. Start them young is a proven policy for successs.

But as to converting others, remember that those who will be converted are those who WANT to be converted. Just as I must "match the mood" with my customers to know whether they are ready to try UL techniques, we have to remember that not everybody wants or even NEEDS to be converted. A hard sale is as likely to provoke backlash as to create a new UL hiker.

SIDE NOTE: Sorry for joining this discussion so late. I was on the TRT and JMT when it was going on.

I have found similar experiences. Traditional backpackers give the UL backpacker a bewildered look when discussing the contents of their packs, but I think it is the latter who should be confused by the former. Why would you choose to pay MORE for a heavier shelter?

In a local outfitter, I am wary of talking to customers about packing techniques because I want them to support the local company, but I would not myself buy an over priced north face pack over a GG, Zpacks, ULA, Borah Gear…

I have been trying to get a local outfitters to host a 'special sale' on Borah Gear to bring in customers and help out the independent company.

I spend so much time researching gear, reading reviews, reviewing UL "Big Three" combinations, that I have considered working for an outfitters…but then I realized I have very limited knowledge of the traditional backpacking companies in terms of shelters and backpacks. Why buy a Big Agnes "UL Tent" that weighs 5 pounds, when you can buy from Tarp Tent, GG, Borah Gear, Zpacks, etc and stay under two pounds.

Interested Packers have been relegated to internet communities where we geek out over reading how a man drilled holes in his tooth brush and managed to save and ounce AND brush his teeth.