Extreme cold weather clothing systems and other related issues

Hi Justin

> What's the coldest that you have used the above system down to?
Eh, probably not that far down in temperature – maybe -17 C.
What we get here in Oz is BAD weather – gales and snow with cold. Wind is the killer.

You have probably seen those delightful pics of female climbers in bikinis at Everest Base Camp – at the middle of a very still day without a cloud in sight? Yeah, right.

Thermals – mostly polypro, because that's what has been available here. Finding ANY good stuff is usually the problem for us.
Fleece – dunno actually – I bought the fabric locally and MYOG my own shirts. :-)
Trousers: Thinsulate bib&brace for really bad weather, but you can sure sweat inside them. Italian fleece cross-country trousers we picked up cheapish one time at an end-of-season sale: very good intermediate between the Thinsulate and the Lycra. Apparently they were not flashy enough for the resort bunch.

In sunny weather when you are working you can (and should) strip down as far as possible to avoid sweating. But when the wind blows I find it flattens the fleece on the windward side so you get a lot of chilling there: the insulation layer is then too thin. That's when a THICK COARSE fleece is useful, to just maintain the thickness of the layer.

You may also have seen the padded jackets worn by Tibetans in the snow. Dunno what the padding is, nothing wonderful I imagine, but it's the thickness which counts.

Cheers

> part of Skurka's problem was that he was constantly using a VBL while active, and
> so his baselayers etc were constantly getting wet.
I will stick my neck out and say that it was a bad idea.

Read Ranulf Fienne's book Mind over Matter on crossing the Antarctic UNsupported. They wore very little, and their outer layer (windshirt/smock) was breathable cotton ventile.

Shackleton's men in the Antarctic wore 'sledging suits' – very similar, made out of cotton or flax canvas. One lot had to make them on the spot when they lost their supply ship.

Cheers

Roger and others mentioned older techniques. Cotton and wool.

If that interests you, take a look at this site:
http://wintertrekking.com/clothing/

These hearty people camp and hike out regularly on the Canadian shield (a bit cold 'eh!. Sorry..could not resist ;) ) and espouse cotton anorak's, simple fleeces or even wool sweaters, wool pants and tend to not use more cutting edge clothing.

They do hot tenting, but cold tent as well.

A little different (esp since they are about fires at night vs making distance), but I think some of the techniques they use are directly applicable to what some people may wish to do in the winter.

For myself, I've gradually adopted wool pants, a simple fleece jacket, an unlined wind breaker and a wool shirt over my base layer while ski touring. All because of what I've read on this site. And it works well.

Personally, I think it is not cold per se that is the problem in winter. It is moisture.

Highly breathable clothing that let out the moisture while moving is wonderful.

Now, I can't claim to be out consistently and multiple days in -20F weather so YMMV. Our Canadian friends OTOH….

+1 on breathable clothing.

I find that 0F to 20F in Alaska or New England is easier to dress for than skiing in 30F to 40F in California. When there won't be any liquid water for several months, any precip will brush off and if you manage to not sweat too much, breathable clothing works well. Until there's a wind, and then you put on a shell.

When I saw "old school", I was expecting a dissertation on caribou (for leggings and mukluks – the original "hollofill"), beaver (makes great mittens) and wolf (for ruffs because breath doesn't freeze onto it).

A mix of pre-Colombian and Voyageur-type clothing would definitely make an impression. :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITLXo19248g

Another wintertrekker fan here.

"For myself, I've gradually adopted wool pants, a simple fleece jacket, an unlined wind breaker and a wool shirt over my base layer while ski touring. All because of what I've read on this site. And it works well."

Me too, for dry cold. I use a Swedish army cotton anorak and heavy wool (Codet-style) pants sometimes, although I've decided that all of this is better suited to when average temps are around 0F or below because of the weight and bulk.

My footwear for the same temp range is "mukluks" made from Tingley rubber overboots and mukluk liners/insoles, worn with neoprene vapor barrier socks. (Thanks to Eric B for the great idea on the VB socks.)

Thank you for the further info Eric and Roger. Definitely am considering and weighing all advice carefully and methodically.

Hi Paul and Andy,

Yeah, i've been reading the winter trekking site. Justin B referred it to me awhile back. Pretty interesting–i'm guessing these guys have a better innate cold tolerance than myself, because i doubt i could wear as little as them and be comfortable unless i'm using some kind of meditative type techniques to compensate.

Living most of your life up in Canada might have that effect. I remember when i was younger, didn't eat primarily vegetarian, and lived up in MA, and worked manual labor jobs–had a MUCH better cold tolerance.

Yes, i like wool pants, have several, though none of the really thick and heavy duty ones. I like the wool-poly pants i have. I've soaked the bottom halves (lower thight down) in Nikwax DWR, and they work quite nice in the snow (not that we get much in VA :(

Old school, man, i got lot's of Linen in my wardrobe, can't get more old school than that. Older than even wool use i think. Maybe i should use and mod my thrift store Linen Sport coat into a outer coat..

I've built my system on a combination of what I've experienced in the Sierras, Michigan's UP, and Minnesota's cold spells. Then I compared with what guides were suggesting on Denali and Everest and came up with the following:

—- top —-
Icebreaker 150-weight wool LS crew neck
Icebreaker 200-weight wool LS crew neck (thumb holes!)
Icebreaker 260-weight wool LS zip-neck (thumb holes!)
(optional) USMC expedition-weight polypro LS zip-neck (cheapest option by far)
Patagonia R1 hoody (thumb holes!)

Mountain Hardwear Effusion softshell (for activity during the day)

Mountain Hardwear Monkey Man pile fleece jacket (when active/sweating or temps go above freezing)
or
MontBell Alpine Light Down Parka (when extremely cold or sedentary)

Mountain Hardwear Epic hardshell

Feathered Friends Volant parka (extreme cold and wind)

—- bottom —-
Smartwool PhD midweight calf-high socks
Wigwam wool (scratchy, but warm) oversized sock
Icebreaker mid-weight wool leggings (3/4 length)
USMC expedition-weight polypro long johns
REI Acme Schoeller fabric softshell pants
(WTB: insulated pants, but I stay active enough during the day I don't need)
no-name Goretex 3-layer hardshell pants

—- head

—- hands —-
I've yet to figure this out completely but I make due with a pair of lightweight running/camp gloves from Target, The North Face Apex windproof gloves, and a no-name Primaloft mitt. I always keep a backup glove in the pack.

My dad used to trap in 40 and 50 below in what is now Denali Park.

Two pairs wool socks
1-2 mukluk liners
Two felt insoles
Mukluks

Long underwear
Wool pants
Down pants or wind pants

Shirt
Wool shirt
Wool shirt
Down Parka
Wind parka with fur

Balaclava
Hat

Wool mittens
Insulated mittens
Mitten shells with fleece back.

Foam pads
Down sleeping bag
Canvas tent
Collapsable wood stove
Sled

—

Nothing non breathable. Nothing constricting. Nothing expensive. The spandexification of outdoor sports is counterproductive here. Good luck and have fun!

So, updating that to current gear:

Mukluks
Wool boxers
1 piece fleece suit (OR, etc)
Softshell pants
Down pants
Puffy vest
Wind shell
Down jacket
Down parka
Liner gloves
Medium mittens
Polar mittens
Balaclava
Hat
Fur ruff
Goggles

You'll be fine! VBL should probably go in there somewhere if you can't dry your stuff.

Thank you Mitch and Will for the further info and suggestions.

Last night I went out for a bit.
Conditions -20F/-29C, very little wind.
Torso layers:
Merino fishnet baselayer
150g merino base layer
Nikwax analogy jacket (comparable to 'midweight base layer with a plain microfiber shell)

Legs:
Powerstretch tights
Nikwax analogy pants (equivalent to midweight base layer and plain microfiber shell)

Head:
Thin headband
Mid weight smart wool balaclava
150g merino hood, removed after 20 minutes.
Nikwax analogy hood (equivalent to midweight base layer and plain microfiber shell)
Coyote ruff
Goggles with foam nose shield added and foam covering removed from top and side vents.

I was too warm, had my pants zipped down from thigh to knee, and would have unzipped further, except for deep snow.
Torso was about right, just a tiny bit warm, could be dealt with by zipping and unzipping vents.

My big problem though, is that even these uncoated shells were soaking wet from condensation on the inside.
Minor issue was the goggles iced up slowly, after about 45 minutes, but with the ruff flipped forward I was ok without them too.

So, I'd say your original layers would be much to warm, even close to -40f.

Hi Tjaard,

I expect you are probably correct about that.

Not directly related, but maybe worth a mention: I was recently out in some near 0 degree weather, and got it to a nice sweet spot with my active layers. For legs, regular grid fleece baselayer pants (like R1 i think) and then very thin/light no name nylon windpants.

Top, Pat. Cap. 4 hoody for baselayer, homemade Apex vest with 2.5 oz insulation only in the front and very breathable 1.1 oz nylon ripstop shell/lining in the front with a polartec powerdry fabric on the back. And Brooks LSD II windjacket.

My arms got a wee bit cold at times, but not too bad. I had to keep the windjacket mostly unzipped most of the time. For hands, just Rab MeCo glove liners, layered over with Polypropylene over sized glove liners (i really love this combo).

The hood from the Pat. Cap. 4 hoody and the hood from the UL windjacket was enough for my head with at times moderate wind (up to 20 mph or so).

Makes me think that 20 degrees less, and i probably would have just needed another thin long sleeved shirt for the top, bottoms probably stay the same since i have good tolerance in my legs, and maybe a light/thin Polartec Power dry high efficiency balaclava for my head.

So yes, i was probably way over shooting originally.

Here's a paper comparing a traditional Inuit hood and fur ruff with the military tunnel hood. The sunburst hood pattern is better in windy cold conditions.
http://www.int-res.com/articles/cr2004/26/c026p077.pdf

The military tunnel hoods work pretty well here (windy cold hilltop in Mass). The hoods with synthetic ruff are cheap and easy to find as military surplus. One of my prized possesions is a Canadian surplus older hood with fur ruff; it's a nicer design and the fur works better.