PB jar vs hot water…

I've done that same experiment. It seems that about 20% of ultralight backpackers will eventually feel compelled to shrink a peanut butter jar with hot water.

The Glad Lockware and Ziploc Twist'n Loc containers will hold boiling water without damage, and they are made of polyethylene or polypropylene (I don't remember which), so they won't leach any plasticizers or other chemicals. They come in a variety of sizes and they're available from Amazon and other online sources. I've used the Ziploc Twist'n Loc and I discovered that they are not perfectly leakproof, but close.

Try #5 plastic. I bought food products that were packaged in bowls of it, and I have been using the bowls for years for backpacking without a failure.

–B.G.–

I feel your pain. PB jars seem great as storage containers in the garage, but they are so greasy from the PB, I toss them in the dishwasher and that 190F water warps them every time. (I finally resorted to hand-washing them, only).

My wonder, go-to polymer is HDPE. Move over one bin at the recycling center to the #2 plastics (with the milky white gallon milk jugs). Good way above boiling. Good way below -40. For some PB-jar-sized, try a half-gallon milk jug cut down to 6-7" height. For something a little sturdier, window-washing fluid, coffee, and shampoos come in thicker containers. It cleans up completely in the dishwasher.

If you actually want to pay for something, I can find the screw-top containers in my Safeway but they are Ziploc, not Tupperware. They are nice containers, not too heavy. The 32 oz / 946 ml version is about PB-jar sized. And dishwasher safe. Made of polypropylene (recycle #5).

Looks like someone has them on sale at amazon:

http://www.amazon.com/Ziploc-Twist-Medium-Round-Containers/dp/B007J46WRU/ref=sr_1_1?s=hpc&ie=UTF8&qid=1382412065&sr=1-1&keywords=ziploc+32+oz

a good deal as part of a larger order (free Shipping on orders over $35).

I use these. It works well. Same as above without the screw top.

http://www.ziploc.com/Products/Pages/ContainersSmartSnapSeal.aspx?SizeName=Medium%20Square%20%E2%80%93%2032%20ounces

I like the ones RK listed above as bowls and mugs. Especially on a family trip because they nest so nicely. I don't trust the lids as much as I do the screw-top ones, but if you don't put liquids or goos in them, they are cheaper, lighter, and very available.

Yea the lids can pop loose especially after putting boiling water in there.

Last winter season (january of this year, iirc) I had a Hunersdorf water bottle setup that I put really hot water into and it get all sucked in on itself. Every few months I have checked it and its just always been the same. This weekend I pulled it out to start prep'ing for this winters hiking season and I was amazed to see it had reshaped itself. No idea why after 9 or 10 months, but it finally fixed itself.

Here is my little setup:

Thx all. Glad to hear I'm not the only one :) now that you mention the glad twist locks, I feel like I have seen those around so just gotta look harder. I'm hoping to get a setup big enough so the Fosters can would actually go inside them (and be a little protected) so we'll see what I can find.

Hey Ryan! I was about to do the same with a PB jar. Thanks for the writeup, you saved me a shrinkage.

The first time I tried this I obviously got the same results. Only after the fact did I think to check BPL to see that this will happen, without fail, almost every time. Then I started reading that PET plastics leach all sorts of crap upon contact with heat. I think #5/polypropylene is considered the most stable of the usual plastics, then HDPE. (
Edit: I have no references for these statements, not sure of their accuracy.)

Besides the Ziploc and Glad brand twistloc containers, I've used Target brand ones as well, the shape just fit my pot better and they worked as well.

> PET plastics leach all sorts of crap upon contact with heat.
You may have read it, but is it true?

PET does not contain 'all sorts of crap', so it is likely that the writers of those comments did not have a clue. There's a LOT of that on the Internet.

Cheers

My limited understanding so far, is that a good amount of plastics commonly used for food/drink in their more basic state are pretty inert and non reactive, especially the polyethylenes, polyesters, polypropylenes, etc

But what happens with some these basic plastics, especially when turned into bottles, containers, films, etc companies will add various plasticizing chemicals to make them more flexible, moldable, durable, etc. It's not so much the basic plastic which is the problem, but the extra plasticizing chemicals that get added.

Manufacturers do not have to list these, and a lot of what they do in adding extra chemicals is "proprietary".

So unless you're a chemist and endocrinologist combined and can analyze the various added chemicals and their effects on the body IN A LONG TERM SENSE, how are we going to know it's all generally safe for health, doesn't leech, etc? Can we trust the industry and huge corporations to look out for our long term well being? In the U.S. can we *fully* trust FDA, EPA, and the like? In America, the dollar is God. I suspect this is true (currency/money being God) to a greater or lesser extent in much of the world.

Changing formulas and ingredients, changing manufacturing methods costs money, and change in established, working routine is usually seen as "bad" by most humans, especially when it costs money. I'm not saying there is a grand conspiracy to make us sick and weak, and all that, but rather that greed is pervasive and when it's so pervasive, people have a tendency to start to look the other way about important issues.

Believe me, i would LOVE to believe that most plastics are completely, or even mostly safe under most normal conditions, but having had and to some extent still having some health issues, i would err on the side of caution.

The fact that some plastics leave a taste behind when used for water or the like, is something that i don't like taste wise, and makes me extra cautious about any possible harmful chemical leeching. There might be a lot of drama and exaggeration in the media about some of these issues, but to think there is not a kernel of truth either, is perhaps naive too.

There have been some studies (plural), which show, btw that some of these potentially harmful chemicals like BPA are found in detectable amounts in peoples bodies. If not coming from plastics, where are they coming from?

I just heard on the radio the other day (NPR i believe) a piece about how epidemic early onset puberty is becoming in America. On the show was an endocrinologist, as well as a general researcher/journalist. It's starting to become more and more common for even 7 and 8 year old girls to start their period and go through puberty in the U.S.! It's even starting to happen to 6 year olds!

You can argue all day about how safe these chemicals are, how they have no effect on people's bodies blah, blah blah, but obviously something going on, and it may be a combination of factors like hormones in foods and endocrine altering chemicals in plastics for starters.

For people on a site essentially devoted to nature, it's amazing how cavalier so many attitudes on here regarding lot's of these things.

+1 on Justin's post…

I might add that even the cans (including Foster's) are lined with plastic. And I doubt it was designed to deal with boiling water…

just sayin'

Bill D

I agree that it seems prudent to be cautious about using plastic or plastic lined containers with hot food or water. It seems to me, though, that some are likely safer than others. My reading in the past suggests to me that the common container plastics can be grouped in terms of risk of ingesting substances originating in the plastic (NOT risk to one's health, which is a completely different question):

Lowest Risk: Polypropylene, polyethylene, fluoroplastics
Low Risk: Silicones, polyester (PET)
Moderate Risk: Polycarbonate (Lexan), urethanes
High Risk: Epoxies, PVC

More research is necessary in order to have any certainty about what might leach from plastic containers and what the health effects might be, but if you seek out containers made of the lowest risk plastics, then I think it is safe to say that you will not be exposed to chemicals originating in the material of the container.

For reference, beer cans are lined with epoxy, old Nalgene bottles are polycarbonate, PB jars are polyester, and Glad/Ziploc screw-top tubs are polypropylene.

>"So unless you're a chemist and endocrinologist combined "

Nope, just a chemical engineer who's done environmental work for 25 years. It's my M.D. wife who does the endocrinology, oncology, and cardiology.

>"I just heard on the radio . . . . about early onset puberty."

That's been a very long-term trend. I wouldn't rule out a hormone-mimic as part of the explanation, but fat is an endocrine organ which pumps out estrogen and clearly effects fertility (very lean women are amenorrheic). As overall nutrition (a good thing) and BMI (not a good thing) of pre-teens has increased, the age of menarche has declined significantly.

Colin gave a good list of low-risk and higher-risk plastics. Just like I wouldn't say, "all wood is good", but instead am after people to burn well-seasoned wood, non-conifer if possible, and especially avoid CCA-treated wood and any pre-70's painted wood; I consider which plastic I'm using for what purpose. I like PP and HDPE for food storage, and HDPE for high- and low-temperature applications. Saran Wrap (that brand) has quite low diffusivity when you need a barrier. For cold water bottles, I use, well, water bottles – I like Avian because they are less flimsy and seal better than the really cheap, 24-to-a-case water bottles. And don't burn halogenated plastics like PVC, CPVC, Neoprene, Teflon, etc – really!

As often, good points David and Colin.

Just to clarify some, i wasn't trying to say all plastics are bad or the like. I use plastic in relation to drink and food to some extent. One of my go to bottles is a tritan based plastic one, and i even regularly put quite hot (not boiling) water in it (i'm an herbal tea addict). Not sure if it leaches or not, but at least i don't get any plastic taste.

Just wish there was more transparency in this industry. I've noticed that health is one of those things that people as a trend tend to take for granted, and not many seem to care too much about it until they are faced with ill health or dis-ease. I was one of those forced to pay attention, and now i'm much more discriminating about what goes into or impacts the body.

Nor did my "beliefs" as per placebo effect make much of a difference most of the time. For example, for awhile i strongly believed in how great dark and less refined chocolate with little sugar or fat, was for the body. All the time i was reading about how great it was for us, etc, etc and since i loved the taste, and made my own hot chocolate healthy style from scratch, it was easy to believe. Everytime i made my homemade hot chocolate, i would say to myself, hmm healthy, healthy, healthy and good tasting.

Yet, eventually i noticed that it was one of the worst foods for my body, and contributed more to the painful hives and to psoriasis flare ups than most other things. When i dropped it, things got noticeably better. So much for placebo effect.

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> PET does not contain 'all sorts of crap', so it is likely that the writers of those comments did not have a clue. There's a LOT of that on the Internet.

It's more likely that I'm the one who doesn't have a clue. I honestly have not spent a lot of time looking this up and should've mentioned that. I'm also not using the right language here, because I don't know what counts as 'crap'.

I like Colin's hierarchy of risk assessment, and David's mention of using the right tool for the right job. I stick with PP for contact with near-boiling water because physically it hasn't melted on me, and I've read that it's among the most stable plastics. It seems to be most commonly used for long term food storage and for things like microwavable meals. Something like PET I avoid because in my experience the hot water will even taste like the plastic, regardless of whether there's any chemical leaching. I just don't really have a reason to stray from using PP if it's commonly accepted as safe and I don't know enough about other plastics.