Fleece warmth

A 10 oz puffy is going to be much warmer than a 10 oz fleece. The fleece is good for active stuff since it breathes well, dries quickly, and won't crap out on you while wet. The puffy is better for when you stop moving.
Also synthetic fill insulation will eventually wear out and go flat when it's compressed by your pack straps.

I understand the mechanics of fleece and synthetics and down. I am just wondering if this combo is effective or not. I figure the r1 plus base and houdini will cover me for active from 0 to 100 but probably only to 40 when stopped. If i can add the fleece vest and take the system to 20 at rest and will never encounter 0 degrees, then the extra warmth a puffy gives is not necessary.

I would be freezing at 20 degrees with that set up unless I made a campfire or got into my bag early.

I highly, highly suggest, if you have any MYOG skills or inclinations, to take some 2.5 oz Apex, find two lightweight and breathable long sleeve shirts roughly the same size and put the Apex inbetween and sew them up at the key points (bottom, wrist cuffs, neck).

Very easy to do, very adaptable, warm, fairly cheap (especially if you already have suitable shirts).

Sure, the Apex won't feel quite as nice as Primaloft or Down nor will be as compactable, but there are other advantages to it.

Combine this at times with a lightweight windshirt like a pre 2013 Houdini, and you got a really nice system that is more breathable than most puffy type jackets, longer lasting than Primaloft stuff, but still much more moisture resistant than down and very adaptable.

Being able to separate the wind shirt from it, is key, speeds up the drying time, extends comfort range, etc, etc.

I find it's similar in some respects to the new Polartec Alpha concept, but without the uber high prices. For me personally, i would use a lighter weight Merino synthetic blend as the inner fabric and a light weight, thinner, woven polypro as the outer. This combo reduces stink, yet is quite moisture resistant and warmer when wet otherwise. Two layers of thin, breathable nylon could also work ok too, the outer with a good dwr.

Justin, do the shirts need to be a nylon material (like a windshirt) or can they be regular shirt fabric?
Using a base layer as the inner shell would be super comfy.

Swap out the fleece vest for a 60g/m primaloft vest and theres you answer

200 wt fleece items and 60 gm synth is roughly the sqme warmth

The advantage of synth is that it includes a windshiet of course

;)

"Justin, do the shirts need to be a nylon material (like a windshirt) or can they be regular shirt fabric?
Using a base layer as the inner shell would be super comfy."

I would say, use whatever is light, breathable and comfortable. Definitely don't want to use wind shirt like materiel since one's wind shirt would be providing the wind protection when needed anyways.

So far, i've only made one such system, which is really not practical for backpacking since it's quite heavy, but i consider it the "if i ever go to the Arctic" or experience similar like conditions piece of gear.

The inner is a lighter weight Lambswool/Angora Rabbit fur/nylon/cashmere sweater i picked up used. 2.5 oz Apex in between, and then the outside is a baby alpaca sweater gotten on clearance from a cottage company. It's quite a warm combo, but also pretty heavy. It would be uber comfortable and adaptable in some very cold temps, especially combined with a light weight windshirt.

For for the purposes of backpacking and the OP's intentions, i would say two very lightweight and thinner shirts that are breathable. Like two silk weight powerdry shirts or the like. Or just two layers of more breathable, rip stop nylon.

With Apex, you don't really have to worry about super tight weave. You do want to minimize washing it, which is why i do advocate some kind of odor resistant fabric for inner, or wearing an odor resistant baselayer underneath. (but such a combo would be rather warm). The outer, well you don't have to worry about that, just maybe spilling stuff on it, and if you're wearing a windshirt over that, definitely much less an issue.

Anyways, thinking outside of the box is fun, especially when saving money at the same time.

It depends on your activity level of course but I would be too hot while trekking fast, and probably a bit too cold during a longer break or if needed to camp. I had an R1 but it is too warm for me.

To be comfortable stationary I think fleece and wind layer or rainshell can work great, and if you already have the appropriate weights it is a good way of saving some money (at the cost of more bulk and weight of course). I have had a 500gr polartec thermal pro with a rainshell and that fleece is very very warm while not as bulky. It was similar in warmth to a 200 gr. thin down shirt with the same rainshell. I would test while walking around town / at night if necessary.

Miles,
To answer your original question, I think you could definitely go down to 40 degrees fahrenheit wearing everything that you mentioned while stationary in camp. You could maybe go down to 30 degrees fahrenheit, but only if you are an absolute metabolic hot house of a guy.

I use a somewhat similar system while backpacking in the summer. From my skin out it goes: Patagonia Capilene 2 Crew > Patagonia R2 Jacket > Marmot Trail Wind Hoody. This system keeps me warm to 40 degrees fahrenheit with no problem. I wouldn't be too comfortable depending on it to keep me warm with much lower temperatures than that. I mean, I wouldn't immediately freeze if it was 30 degrees fahrenheit out, but I wouldn't be very warm either.

I'll tell you what though, the ticket to extending the warmth of all these items is to include a warm hat and a warm gloves to your system. I think many people disregard hand (and to a lesser extent, head) warmth, especially on summer trips. I find that just wearing some simple gloves and a hat will drastically improve the warmth of my system, so don't discount these very light but effective items in your insulation strategy (you probably don't, but I thought I'd mention it anyway).

I find that each one of these insulative items mentioned above can be useful during the day if it starts to get cold while I'm on the move. I have worn items listed above in every conceivable combination, and each one has it's uses. You definitely loose that versatility when you only bring a very warm puffy (though, it's definitely warmer in camp, no doubt about that).

Also, for what it's worth, I find R2 and R1 fabric fairly similar in terms of warmth when used alone. The R2 is less resistant to wind chilling effects when used as an outer layer, but the it's also substantially warmer than the R1 when layered under a shell.

If I was going out for a run, I'd wear the R1, but I find an R2 to be a better layering item, so I usually take that when backpacking.

Hope this was helpful. For what it's worth, I'm totally with you on the advantages of fleece when it comes to breathability and ease of washing. I'm the type of person who likes to wash all my clothing items after a backpacking trip, and I imagine that I'd degrade a synthetic puffy pretty quickly with this behavior, so I stick mainly to fleece, even though I pay the price a bit in bulk and weight.

"The advantage of synth is that it includes a windshiet of course "

Unless you are experiencing crazy winds and bitter cold in combo, I consider the above a disadvantage especially for any active conditions. puffies are always made with 2 wind resistant layers, which really decreases breath ability, which makes it suck for most active conditions.

The idea I put forth on the other hand is much more adaptable for a wider range of conditions. Having just 1 wind resistant layer that you can separate increases dry in times, breath ability, and adaptability significantly.

Sometimes that adaptability is more preferable to saving a little weight. There have been more than a few cold mornings where I wished I had something other than a traditional puffy for starting out, for one example, and make no mistake even a synthetic puffy can hold moisture longer than is helpful or desired.

If you're washing your stuff a lot, then a fleece makes more since it will take that much better.

I suppose a good compromise would be a fleece and windshirt combined with a MYOG Apex vest with light but breathable lining (like a non calendered rip stop nylon or the like).

Oh come on … Yr recommending patches of apex here and there????

Hes already got a fleece vest, hes got the r1, hes got the shell

All he needs to do is go test it

Unless you are in pretty cold temps you arent wearing a puffy on anything high output activities … A stroll in the park on flat geound maybe … But not anything uphill in a pack above freezing

Theres a lot of "theory" and how "my way that no one has ever thought of before" is the best

When you come right down to it, most people, including those who go harder longer and stronger than anyone here generally stick to proven layering methods for good reasons

;)

Not suggesting "patches" of Apex, but a more flexible/adaptable system than traditional puffies. Polartec has tackled the same issue/problem with their new Alpha material. Course as you so often like to point out it costs $$$ because its a big name brand. The Apex idea is quick, easy and relatively cheap.

As far as the rest of the reply, I have noticed in the recent past you complaining about someone making the debate personal…well perhaps its time to practice what you expect or would like from others.

Most everything first starts as a "theoretical" idea or accidents. I mentioned some actual experiences which has prompted the theoretical idea. A number of cold mornings where I had both too much and too little insulation while starting out. Sure, one can tough it out and that's what I've done so far, but my idea would be a good solution especially with a fishnet base layer ;)

And it will still act as ones good puffy insulation. Ah, flexibility… ;)

I assume you have used and tested these theories in different conditions? … Practicing what u preach?

Innovation does happen … But it doesnt come from internet forums … It comes from real world usage, perhaps a lab as well, but either way its tested and proven in the real world

All the OP needs to do is spend some time outside in his yard at night and go for a brisk walk … That will tell him more than any intraweb theorizing

;)

I already mentioned I made a version of this, but not applicable to the OPs purposes. In actuality, there is very little "theory" here. Most here know that Apex is a high quality, warm, fairly durable, high quality synthetic insulation. All I am saying is to make it more breathable and adaptable to a wider range of conditions. Also increase flexibility by selectively using a wind shirt in combo.

This simple COMMON SENSE, not arcane theoretics.

And yet again, Polartec recently created something like this in their Alpha material, except that my idea is even more flexible/ adaptable than theirs because of a separate wind shirt.

BTW, Alpha has been used and well endorsed by some of those who go faster, longer, harder, higher, etc than many of us.

Nothing I'm saying is putting the OP in any danger.. he's thinking about just using fleece to begin with and obviously I'm advocating more insulation than a fleece. I don't expect my idea to be ideal for all or even most conditions, but still better than the common, traditional systems.

Better than common traditional systems?

Thats a bit presumptuous … Your "system" isnt the current polartec alpha offerings

People are using the current systems to do really gnarly things

At the end of the day its what the OP will find on a quick jaunt in the backyard that will matter more than any "non traditional" theories on this thread

Im assuming yr doing crazy things with yr apex modded jacket to claim its "better"

All the OP wants to know is the "warmth" of his fleece setup …

;)

"All the OP wants to know is the "warmth" of his fleece setup … "

(rolls eyes)

I give up Eric, you win. You suggested an alternative, i suggested an alternative, but we differed in opinion–such is life. Horses, water, and all that.

I use a baselayer, r2 and a wind shirt and I am pretty good down to about 40F. But yeah, try your stuff out. There used to be someone on here that made a pullover vest out of sheet poly fill for pillows and a little packing tape. He wore it over his ls baselayer and under his windshirt so there are really cheap options out there also to try out things.

Miles – re your original question – for summer in the Sierra, I have used for a few years now the following: a 1/4 zip t-neck much like the one you have, a base layer shirt, and precip jacket. I also have a light wool zip-t that serves as sleepwear and the extra bit if I need it in the total system. I find this does the trick for me for Sierra summer weather, which usually means mornings in the mid to low 30's. I pair this with expedition weight long johns and wind pants. I'm guessing I can sit around comfortably down to around 40 or the high 30's. A light down jacket would be warmer for he same weight, no doubt, but I don't have one and can't justify buying one at the moment. Plus I think somewhat less versatile, as I can't imagine hiking in any down jacket in any weather that I have ever encountered in California (in any season), while I can sometimes use the fleece on the move if it's downhill and cool and breezy.

I would say I was medium warm as far as metabolism goes, at least when sitting around, and I run quite hot on the move.

Paul,

I think your layered system is practical and a good one for wet weather too. I use much the same.

Answering the OP's question is a slippery slope. Personal metabolism, fatigue, wind, and humidity can all make a difference in cold tolerance. It's a stinker for Southern Californians to test layers. Those of us to the north can take the dog for a walk at home and find out what works (or not). Have a friend with a restaurant or grocery store and a walk-in freezer? :)

A puffy will give more cold weather coverage, but I wouldn't need one for other than colder shoulder season weather– below freezing. I agree that I wouldn't be wearing one while moving. I do prefer synthetic fill.

Gloves and beanie/hood will add a lot of perceived warmth if not actual insulation. When you ears and hands are chilled I think it makes you think you are colder than you really are. Some like balaclavas and buffs are popular too. I don't think that classic neck scarves are mentioned enough in hiking circles: like bandanas, they can have many uses and 100w fleece scarves are dirt cheap and light.

Don't forget the bottoms when in camp. Long johns can add more warmth and are very good for sleep, extending the range of your sleep system and helping with drafts from the gaps in a quilt. I prefer light long johns under rain gear for all day drizzle. Long johns layered with soft shell pants are quite warm and great for cold wet weather.

In a perfect ultralight world, you will be wearing all your layers at the coldest temperatures. There's nothing wrong with wearing your rain gear on top of everything else– it's another layer of dead air and breathability isn't a significant issue sitting around in camp. And there is nothing wrong with wrapping your sleeping bag or quilt around you while jawing with others before sleep. It would be silly to be cold when you have a fat wad of insulation sitting useless in your shelter. Leave fashion at home and use all your gear to best advantage.

And sit on a pad rather than the cold damp ground.

You may not spend much time sitting around in camp. Set up your shelter, cook and eat (if you do so in camp) and then into a nice warm bag out of the wind to read, write, listen to the radio, or just go to sleep. Mornings are busy for me, cooking breakfast and packing up. There isn't much standing around and if I do, it is with a hot cup of coffee.

It seems to me that there are too many recommendations for too much clothing for the moving phase. If it is much more than freezing – certainly anything near or over 5 C, all we wear is a Taslan (Supplex) windshirt. Anything more than that and we would be loading the extra clothing with sweat.

When stationary, a hat or beanie works wonders. In wind, a UL windshirt layer on top is often enough. You don't have to be all hot and sweaty.

Cheers

Hi Roger, speaking as someone who tends to run warm to hot, i more or less agree with you. But there have been plenty of times where i wished i had a little more insulation, like starting off on a cold morning, going down long hills when it's cold and damp, etc.

I usually bring a lightweight down jacket with me, but i'm not going to wear that while active, it's just too warm nor do i want to dirty it up with my sweat.

A super breathable, sort of puffy (synthetic)–perhaps just a vest, might be just the trick though.

Also, the OP is specifically framing his question in relation to camp use too, not just active use. I think some kind of puffy would be more efficient and safer to have, especially a very breathable and faster drying one, which one could use a percentage of the time while active as in the above examples.

Unfortunately, such breathable and quick drying puffies are extremely rare. The only one that i know of currently is the new Polartec Alpha stuff, but that's really expensive stuff. Using Apex with very breathable material, seems like a good compromise and extends range of comfort into some active conditions.

Or, maybe we all could just toughen up? For those of us with primarily Northern European hereditary, most of us certainly seem to be a bunch of climate wimps compared to our ancestors who survived much colder conditions with less efficient insulation…