Bug Out Bag / Prepper Setup / Survival-based UL kit and philosophy

"Dale, but what about in a complete collapse scenario, like what would probably happen with a Carrington like Solar event/really powerful and Earth directed CME?"

I worry more about a big seismic event with a total utility outage and major damage to all the local transportation systems. Surviving a major astronomical event on the long term is doubtful at my age. If I have shelter, food and water, I don't need much more bushcraft skills than gathering firewood and starting a fire. At best I would hope to be able to camp locally if my home is destroyed, or walk out of the area where I can find support.

If someone can walk from Mexico to Canada or cover 1000 miles in the Arctic with an UL kit, what else are you going to ask of it? Having the light weight would be an excellent advantage. So many want military grade gear, which I don't think is necessary. In combat, soldiers are carrying incredibly heavy loads with items like forearms, grenades, ammunition, communication gear, etc. A soldier may be required to run, dive for cover, crawl and scrape over all kinds of surfaces. Rock climbers probably come closest to that kind of use. Walking down a road or trail doesn't come close and the light weight will take me farther and faster to a place where I can get more support.

I understand what you are saying and i generally agree, except on a few key points, for example, "If someone can walk from Mexico to Canada or cover 1000 miles in the Arctic with an UL kit, what else are you going to ask of it?"

Those folks are still doing the above in relation to some sort of civilization wherein they can pick up food and fuel supplies at some place eventually. Not to mention phones, or emergency homing devices in case they get in real trouble..

No such luck in a complete collapse scenario, which is one of the reasons why i don't think a UL system would be practical for most under those conditions. Someone like Cody Lundin could probably get away with it, but not us average folk nor even most of the UL super hikers who rely on replaceable gear, buying food, emergency services if injured, etc. We're talking total self sufficiency, and even if one has that at home (solar, garden, farm, etc), no such luck staying in one place unless you live in a very isolated area and well hidden unless you want to fight to keep what you have.

Generally speaking, with a few exceptions, the more UL a kit, the less durable it is, and durability is a huge factor in a full collapse situation.

"It's interesting how a percentage of NDE accounts involve people being given or shown info about major collapse and short term major challenges, testing, and intense suffering, but also of rebuilding and of golden era of universal compassion, respect for each other and nature, and a society free of all the various ills and imbalances and immense emotional and spiritual suffering that is so common place now. A truly happy and at peace humanity. I've been given glimpses of that in various ways also, and i really, really, really look forward to that. "

Wishful thinking. History tells me that taking away law and order you end up with something closer to the Lord Of The Flies.

What happens when the Police force in a town goes on strike ?
Now imagine no police/army whatsoever and see what happens.

BTW, I too wish for a better world but I see no sign whatsoever that humanity is capable of overcoming selfishness and greed.
One of the reasons, for example, that the Communist experiment failed.
The idea was not really flowed, people are.
But yes, walk out of town post collapse with your cart and a smile on your face and you will be the first one to be robbed.

del

Justin, why do you keep pushing this topic from reasonable emergency preparedness to ridiculous hypotheticals?

Researchers who have studied Ice core samples estimate that Carrington like Solar events happen on average about once in every 500 years. Smaller/less intense, but still potentially devastating to current technology, events are said to occur much more frequently. The electrical grid system in most countries (especially the US) is actually quite fragile. In 1989 the grid was knocked down for awhile in Quebec due to a strongish Solar event/geomagnetic storm.

We are currently in a Solar Maximum (wherein such events are most likely due the temporarily unstable nature of the Sun), and more specifically scientists think the Sun is about to flip its poles in the very near future, which is the period of a Solar maximum that is often the most unstable.

In the further past, these kind of Solar events weren't a big deal to humanity, other than creating pretty light shows even close to the equator. But in a civilization so dependent on electronics and electricity, and with Solar fragile system, we should be paying attention to this issue because such an event can EASILY cause full total collapse. A study was done which indicated that if a Carrington event happened in recent times, instead of in the mid 1800's like it happened last, that it would cost at least a couple of trillion in damages to the infrastructure. Really, when you factor in societal chaos, looting, etc, it would be worse than that imo.

Science, percentages, averages, and physical evidence aside i've had another side of life proven to me time and time again. This side, we could call the "non local". I believe that the fundamental reality is based on a unity, a oneness, and that all exists within a one field. I've been tuned into that side of reality to some extent since i was little (see Dr. Everywhere).

Both my wife and i have been given information in various different ways, over a period of time, that such a Solar event is a high probability in the near future. I care about people A LOT, so much so that i'm willing to appear ridiculous, "crazy", imbalanced or what not in public.

All i'm saying essentially is, "prepare for the worst, and hope for the best". Future is never completely fixed, only terms of probability. Note, i did not start this thread, but once it was started, i figured it was as good as any time to go more into this stuff.

So needless to say i really disagree with "ridiculous hypotheticals".

If you start to see the red skies pretty much everywhere, even close to the equator, then either make your peace, or if you want to be involved the long term of helping others and rebuilding a better, kinder society, then pack your bug out bag and pack it well, and get the heck out of any city and populous areas and back to nature. You can't stop people and society from going crazy and becoming very selfish, but what you can do, is to help others after things settle down some. That's my plan should this happen.

My last post here on this specific topic.

"Wishful thinking. History tells me that taking away law and order you end up with something closer to the Lord Of The Flies."

My experiences in similar situations are as a peacekeeper in the Balkans in the '90s and as a first responder at the WTC.

I saw both sides of the spectrum; extreme evil and extreme good.

The genocide in the Balkans speaks for itself but I was always amazed at how resilient the children were. When we were out on patrol, we'd have dozens of kids come running out of their houses with ear to ear smiles waving at us. It's difficult to put into words but with the the destruction in the background, seeing these happy healthy children gave me a sense of hope.

I was stationed in upstate NY as an EMT and was just returning from breakfast when the second airplane hit the tower. I called my boss and told him to put me on the list to respond to the city. We were rotated in a couple days later. When we arrived at the staging area near Canal Street, I couldn't believe the reports I was hearing. Looters were opening body bags and stealing "souvenirs" like badges off of dead officers and firefighters and taking pictures of the bodies. There were reports of survivors making phone calls from inside the rubble; it turned out that these reports were later proved to be hoaxes made by people who were nowhere near the WTC. People were behaving so horribly that they had to deploy the National Guard to reduce access to Ground Zero. Not even considering how horrible the terrorist act was to begin with, seeing what my own people were doing to each other was enough for me to permanently lose faith in humanity forever.

But I didn't. Once it was our turn to rotate into Ground Zero, there were hundreds of NYers standing on the sides of the road cheering us on. As we waited for a patient to help, citizens who otherwise felt helpless in the rescue effort took action to assist the best way they could. Some of them just walked around with cartons of cigarettes for the rescue workers. Others drove around with coolers full of sandwiches and drinks. At the time, I still suffered from some occasional back pain resulting from my military service and would randomly pop my back and neck. Apparently someone noticed this and the next thing I knew, a jogger grabbed my shoulders from behind (insert prison joke here) and said "it's ok, I'm a chiropractor." He proceeded to adjust my neck and I felt like a million bucks. I'm not a touchy feely person and do not react well to people putting their hands on me uninvited all that well but I couldn't thank him enough before he ran off.

If society collapses, you need to be ready for the worst but you'll also see many more people rise to the occasion. The reality is that it takes over an acre per person of a well established farm to receive enough calories to survive indefinitely. You can survive for a period of time independently but in the long term, 99% of us will need to reintegrate with society to survive following a major calamity.

Justin,

Just shrug it off man. I love the BPL community but thick skin is occasionally required.

v/r

Ian

Thanks Ian, but there is no problem, i didn't take it personally (well, i did for a handful of seconds or so). I can understand people's questioning, skepticism, or lack of tolerance with such topics. If i didn't have the experiences that i have had, i would probably be in a similar boat. But, i figured i probably have said all i can say about the specific topic of full collapse and why, and there's no point in continuing about it.

I may talk some more about survival gear, but in context of itself only and not in a broader context.

"and i feel fine…"

Justin,
just as you feel that you need to pass on the messages aliens are giving to you (yes you are special, and so is everyone else…) I, as a skeptic, feel the need to tell everyone that no, that is just wishful thinking…
Forever some individuals have wanted to be special and feel that they know something others don't.
Same had God talking to them other animals and other still "aliens" .However simply going by historical evidence no matter what secret society/cult one belongs to or who talks to you, in your head ,there is no secret knowledge…

So has this thread gotten completely away from the OP questions (bag, volume, items), and we're down to personal philosophies and taking shots at each other? Ah well, it was interesting while it lasted.

Some of us live in parts of California where the main catastrophic concern is The Big One (a major earthquake), so the only realistic scenario that we prepare for is to have major metropolitan population centers leveled and we would be "on our own" for a period of three to seven days. Then, the resources needed would be very basic, like clean water.

A study was done some years ago at the time of the Loma Prieta Earthquake. It was determined that in the event of another big catastrophe, family people are most likely to want to "hunker down" at their own home or whatever is left of it. Single males are most likely to "take to the hills" and leave the area.

–B.G.–

del

The trick is to go cannibal early and never look back.

Go Hannibal, go cannibal.

"If your "place" is destroyed or too dangerous to remain in, you evacuate to the safest, nearest designated evacuation center. Only an idiot would pack off into the wilderness to try and live UNSUPPORTED for more than a few days."

Living in the wilderness is precisely what 10k's of Cambodians did to survive the Khmer Rouge. I heard about the deep fried tarantulas before I traveled over there but after a little research, learned that this wasn't a traditional Khmer dish prior to the refugees having to expand their diet in order to survive.

Depending on which numbers you believe, there have been between 2.5 and 4 million people murdered ala genocide in my lifetime.

Heh, here’s a gear tip for all you survivalist types looking to rebuild the planet after the fall of civilization;
Don’t forget a watch that winds up instead of uses batteries!

Kinda getting hard to find, not especially accurate or durable, but will last a very long time if well cared for.
I’ve always hated wrist watches and don’t own one to this day, and in the past have actually used a cheap wind up pocket watch backpacking. I carried it rubber banded into a plastic bag, buttoned into a shirt pocket.
Odd how I never use a watch in my day to day life but really value one for pacing myself when backpacking.

In our humble cottage we have my I dunno how-many-times-great-grandfathers wind up pendulum clock, which was one of his wedding gifts. It dates to 1885 and still works great. I also inherited a century old Elgin pocket watch which still works well enough. So, when ( if ) the lights go out at least I’ll still be able to tell time!

My wife and I live on a somewhat remote off grid homestead we’ve built ourselves in the hills of Washington state. We’re used to this life, no running water, butchering all our own meat, heating with only firewood and just finished building a root cellar.
I’m a gun nut given to casting my own bullets and loading my own ammo and my wife tends to hoard food as I do guns and ammo.
So I imagine we will be somewhat better off than most should the grid ever go down. In fact, such an event hardly bothers me at all, provided in is not permanent ( But of course I hold no fantasies about what life would be like after a true civilization-ending event ).

Thus, the idea for me is not to “bug out” but rather to “get home”!
So my concern is with “get-me-home” bags as opposed to “bug-out” bags, much less “Inch Bags” ( I’m-Never-Coming-Home bag, for those truly displaced after the End Of The World As We Know It. ).
At home I have a dwelling with two foot thick bullet proof walls, solar power system, well and gravity feed cistern, sufficient food for several years, enough weapons to equip a decent little militia and what-not. Thus my survival plan is to simply go home.

Now and then I do travel a bit for work, often to somewhat out of the way places. I always try to camp when I’m working jobs like that, as it saves me the cost of motels. I’m always carrying a backpack of supplies in my car as I never know when I’ll be called away from my cozy desk job to do emergency field work.

More to the point of this thread, I have recently given thought to putting together a UL or at least close to UL “Get-Me-Home” bag, as it seems to me that UL thru-hiker type equipment and tactics ( stealth camping, rising early and getting a fast start, then stopping for breakfast some time later, and stopping to cook dinner early, then camping some miles away, etc…) fit well with the “get-me-home” bag requirement and mission.

This kit is currently a work in progress due to limited funds and time but so far my list look sorta like this –

Backpack –
Homemade along the lines of Ray Jardines design, of ordinary nylon. Hopefully this winters project!

Shelter –
Homemade polycryo tarp, walmart aluminum stakes, 3mm nylon cordset, “All weather sportsman’s blanket” for ground cloth.

Sleeping –
Homemade large rectangular quilt or “quillow”, with nylon cover, 1” of quilt batting, fleece lining and netting sewn to the top. These quilts I have already made.
Walmart blue foam pad, probably cut down a bit.

Cooking –
Walmart grease pot ( the new taller ones with handle) with wire bail added, Pepsi can stove, hardware cloth stand, foil wind screen, Coghlans spoon, empty cottage cheese container with lid for bowl/cup/leftovers container. These kits I have already made.

Clothing-
This is where I get a little heavy, as day to day we typically wear close to 100% cotton, not particularly appropriate to the environment through which we may be traveling and may not be well suited to a long walk home.

Dri Ducks rain gear
Surplus 65/35 poly cotton BDU trousers
Fleece vest from Bi-mart
Uniqlo “heat tech” thermal underwear bottoms and long sleeve top,
Light colored long sleeved synthetic dress shirt, probably something from Good Will.
Swiss surplus wool gaiters

Currently I have a ratty old Walmart down parka that I carry in my car so I’d probably toss that in as well.

Tools N’ Stuff-

Compass
Knife – small sheath knife but possibly SAK one hand Trekker?
Fire starters, Bic, matches
Sewing kit, duct tape
Etc…

Well, you get the idea!~ We already carry first aid kits and tools of various sorts in our cars, and I don’t pack flashlights in emergency kits because they don’t do well in long term storage. Instead I pack a few light sticks.
I always pack a little water in our cars, about 1/2 gallon, in mylar pouches. These withstand repeated freeze/thaw cycles without injury, and in the warmer months add more in whatever containers are handy.

These kits should be in the low teens without food and water, and just over twenty pounds with, and hopefully not to expensive.
Anyway, that’s just my take on it

Anyone read Cormac McCarthy's The Road?
I loved how the people that built the bunker and prepared for everything apparently never made it to their bunker….

_____________________________

Aliens, guns, suicide, raingear, Trishield Grid….

But nobody mentions cold, hard CASH?

Access to cash in emergencies can never hurt. I'm not talking some far-fetched global-civilization-ending-crawling-from-our-bunkers and rebuilding the free world scenario, but a simple natural or man made disaster and subsequent loss of power for a few days to a couple months.

In the wise words of the Wu Tang Clan (more specifically Method Man on the hook):

Cash Rules Everything Around Me
C.R.E.A.M. get the money
Dollar dollar bill y'all

___________________________

I suppose guns and bullets certainly couldn't hurt in the long term.
I remember a time years ago when a transformer blew and took out power to a huge area in my neighborhood. It only took 4 hours before people tried to loot the local Rite Aid.

I vividly remember living in Los Angeles during the riots. Every day would end with a brilliant sunset produced by the smoke of all the fires burning. Even grandmas were breaking store windows to steal diapers, baby formula, and children's cloths.

As for Justin's vision of a heavenly future where all humans are happy and live in harmony on Earth….ummm.
You have more faith in humans than I do, friend.

Here's a Cormac McCarthy (from The Crossing) quote to ponder:

"He said that while one would like to say that God will punish those who do such things and that people often speak in just this way it was his experience that God could not be spoken for and that men with wicked histories often enjoyed lives of comfort and that they died in peace and were buried with honor. He said that it was a mistake to expect too much of justice in this world. He said that the notion that evil is seldom rewarded was greatly overspoken for if there were no advantage to it then men would shun it and how could virtue then be attached to its repudiation?"

…

My main worry in a survival scenario is other humans, as in "The Road."

My kit:

Gossamer Gear G4 pack
Feathered Friends Winter Wren sleeping bag
Neoair UL mattress
Montbell hoody down jacket
Gore-Tex bivvy bag
Polycro tarp/tent
Tyvek body suit
Dry Duck poncho
Rain shell and pants
Thick thermax sweats
Bike shorts (no chamois) for hiking
Long-sleeved sun shirt
Broad-brimmed hat
Sunglasses
Mini binoculars
Micro LED headlamp with extra batteries
Aqua Mira
Sawyer mini water filter
First aid kit (bandages, neosporin, moleskin, 2 ace bandages, aspirin
Chouinard expedition sewing kit
24" machete
GOLD Gear Fanatic Solo Ti cook kit with 8 oz alcohol & 14 Esbits (also burns wood)
3 kinds of fire starters (vaseline soaked cotton balls, wood chips, magnesium block)
2 mini-Bic lighters
Sparking steel with striker
Hand-cranked flashlight/AM/FM radio/cell phone charger
Cell phone with battery case (4 days continuous use)
Hiking shoes
Thin socks (2 pair)
Thick socks (1 pair)
Gold & silver coins
Hanging bear bag
7 days hi-calorie no-cook survival rations
2 half-quart water bottles
10 oz Glenlivet
1 oz high-grade 420 with rolling papers
Toiletries kit (tooth brush, floss, chapstick, sunscreen, tweezers)
Compass
Signaling mirror
Mini Victorinox knife with scissors
Gerber mini "leatherman" tool
Reading glasses
100' paracord
10' nylon sail repair tape
Heckler & Koch HK 91 7.62 mm NATO with 3 30-round mags, sling, bayonet & 200 rounds
Glock 19 9mm pistol with 3 14-round mags in concealed carry hip pack & 200 rounds

Total weight without guns = 20 lbs.
Guns & ammo = 30.4 lbs

My wife's kit is essentially the same, but with a Ruger 10/22 rifle & 1000 rounds and no pistol.

Good list David.

Might want to give that gerber saw a workout though, and see if it can be relied upon.
I gave one of those gerber saws that retract the blade into the handle to my wife and she busted the blade in one month work about our homestead. Replaced it with a Fiskars folding saw which is still going strong in it's second year, and it has been very heavily used as we use it for construction as well as wood craft.

Not sure I like the Fiskars hatchet though,as it has a plastic handle? I've seen too many of those break. My favorite hatchet ( and my wife and I must have ten of 'em ) is the all steel Estwing. Balance seems a bit off at first, but you get used to it, and it will never break no mater what you do to it. grab it up in both hands and chop through the wall of your house if you need to, it can take the abuse. The blade is very fine and is my favorite tool for saddle notching logs.

Heh, nice rifle the HK 91.
Once upon a time about twenty years ago I went backpacking with a FAL and three 20 round mags, one in the gun, and one in each side pocket of my backpack. On that trip my wife carried a bolt action .22 rimfire.

The trip was up high and dry, so we also needed to carry all our water…

I swear, that dang FAL just about pulled my arms out of my sockets by the end of that trip! Just to dang heavy for me to hump the boonies with! So despite the fact that I did love that rifle and the caliber, I switched to 7.62×39, first in an AK, then and SKS.

I found the AK carried well and certainly worked well, but even just three 30 round mags in a chest pouch were still a bit awkward and heavy. Switching to twenty round mags helped, but reduced my capacity.

Now the SKS was the most convenient to tote of all. A chest pouch ( the so called Chinese Bra ) of 200 rounds on stripper clips can actually be worn with a backpack with reasonable comfort!

That chest pouch with 200 rounds of 7.62×39 on strippers weighs right about eight pounds fully loaded, so I kinda think your weights are rather low!

Every year for about a decade I took my winters meat with an SKS, so I got real good at sneaking through the woods a blowing the head offa something with it, and I used one at several Appleseed shoots, so I felt quite confident with this setup.

But ya know, I'd not want to be without a good .22 rimfire rifle. My wife has a marlin 60 with a Simmons scope and sling, and I made the best shot I ever did on game with that rifle, an off hand shot at a turkeys neck at a full fifty yards.

I reckon the .22 rifle should wear iron sights and a scope and sling.

But the fact is a few years back I went and sold all my AK and SKSs, and my only semiauto rifles now are .22s. I hunt with lever action rifles these days!

My wife never did handle a rifle bigger than a .22 al that well, and I reckon she can be a terror with one if she wanted to despite the tiny caliber. lying prone, hidden under a bush she can spit five fast rounds into a bandits face at 75 yards in two seconds time with her pet Marlin.

So I reckon if I ever had to head out on foot the only long arm taken would be a .22.

Anyway, I believe 200 rounds of .308 is about 10.5 pounds ( 150 grain bullet ), 200 rounds of 115 grain 9mm has got to be six pounds and your HK has got to be about nine pounds dry? Might want to check those weights!

@ Robert van Putten-

And your address is…?

It's amazing how many relatives say "if the stuff hits the fan we'll all just go to Bobs house!"

So we built a bunk house – No kidding. Had to have a place to put all the bodies, not to mention stage supplies. Not that I think it will ever come to this, so it serves as a combination guest cabin / garage / root cellar for now.

Fact is, our place is pretty durn hard to get to when the winter snows close the roads.
I love it, its like having a moat for six months out of the year. The first time my one neighbor on this mountain drives his car on up past our homestead in the spring I always complain about the traffic!

Don't shoot when I come by once it all hits the fan. I'll be the guy with the little cuben backpack and a bottle of bourbon.

Funny that will all the sidearms and rifles on my wish list, 1/3 of them are .22s.

I wish Springfield still made the .22/.410 M6 Scout. I've seen a few for sale on line but they're hard to find under $400. Someday.

I'll eventually convert my son's .22lr Cricket to a pack rifle using the PRK kit http://rutalocura.com/PRK.html. Probably knock this out before spring.

I checked out the 10/22 takedown. It was still pretty bulky when broken down and didn't seem to be worth the effort. Long term plan is to build one from Tactical Solution components after I buy a Scout.

I've heard too many complaints about the AR-7 to give it serious consideration even though I like the design.

Stepping up to 5.56 / .223, I really want to like the mini-14 but like the AR-7, performance reviews are spotty.

The Gerber saw is a locking folder. 5" blade with 6.5" handle, 3.1 oz. Saws through a fir 2×4 in about 30 seconds.

I use a military-style sling to carry the HK91 in front. Way to heavy to carry all day.

You are right about my gun weights being low. I just weighed everything and got the following:

HK 91 with sling & three 30 rd mags = 13.3 lbs.
200 rds 7.62 NATO = 10.5 lbs.
Glock 19 with three 14 rd mags = 1.7 lbs.
200 rds 9mm = 4.9 lbs.

Total = 30.4 lbs.

I'll edit my original post.