Pack for Peak Assaulting?

I've been using my regular 3-season multiday pack, which happens to be a Buttermilks 55. It compresses down just fine to hold less things and carries quite comfortably.

My 3-season pack has historically been a Buttermilk 40, actually, which is pretty cool. Great pack, huh?

That's my standby. I like the Osprey because there's a lid (I know there's a boreas with a lid) and the ice axe loops look a little burlier. And, bonus, I know I love Osprey's fit and warranty. And it's WAY cheap. I can get a 44 for $120.

My problem isn't picking a pack, it's picking a size pack. :(

Last winter, I could technically fit everything for winter in my 40L. Difference is, my sleeping bag was WAY less compressible, my winter puffy was WAY less compressible, and my shelter was 2x the size and weight. So can I barely fit a 33? Not sure… 44 might be my only option.

Are you packing all that gear for an overnight or in the event you need to hunker down and ride it out?

I'm confused by your term " peak assault". Are you camping low and bagging peaks in the day?

33L is roughly my pack size for multiday trips for 3 season, but that's carrying a down bag and a lightweight down or synthetic puffy. Winter trips I stuff the hell out of my pack. I think you're better off finding a pack that fits you well, has a solid waistbelt to support the load, and can compress your gear down nicely. I've learned that it's better to have excess volume that you can compress down with side compression straps vs. forcing gear into a pack with too little volume.

Why are you hung up on the Talon series btw? The hip belt is nice, but buckles under even moderate weight, in the little time I spent with it. I had the 33.

Yeah, I think that the lack of a frame in the 33 might lead me to the 44, but the 33 is better for me 3/4 months of the year, so if I can just-barely-make-it, I want to. I can use a 33 for weekend trips all spring, summer, fall, and I can use it bikepacking, and I can use it for traveling. But I don't want to buy two packs.

And yeah, I should have specified. It's a just-in-case bag. If I have to make a solo or duo trip up an ice-covered mountain in 0º temperatures, I sure as hell don't want to leave without a coat and sleeping bag, and a way to melt snow. So this kit would be for trying to hike to the top of something meaty, say, Camel's Hump, in 1 or, at most, 2 days.

provided you are moving fast, you and your partner are splitting gear and you know what you are doing. i'm not going to comment on all of your gear, but the one thing that jumps-out is the wood stove, which you need to replace. looking for wood to burn (if you can find any) is a really poor use of your time.

i can get everything i need for a 4/5-day winter trip in the 5*f range into a 40l pack. without climbing/glacier travel gear and subing out my belay jacket for my wm volant, i bet i could squeeze into 35l, but it would be really tight.

see the link below for what might be my typical load-out.

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=55176&nid=466402&print=1

if (some) comfort wasn't an issue and based on the situation i could easily ditch about a third of whats listed in that post, especially if i moved the temp range up to say 15*f.

In fact, I use the Talon 44 exclusively. It's my only pack (for now…) and it works well for just about everything I use it for, which is mostly 3-season backpacking with a fair bit of winter day hikes and overnighters. Loads at or above 30lb aren't great, but anything below 25lb carries quite well. It has a great compression system so you can still cinch things up really well even if the pack isn't anywhere near full.

Also, as you mentioned, the 44 has a frame and frame sheet. IMO the frame is just stiff enough to transfer loads effectively but flexible enough to contour your back comfortably. The vertical members of the frame are fiberglass, so they can't be bent into shape.

Considering your intended use, I'd go for the 44. I'd say the frame and extra volume (if/when needed) are worth the 7oz. I know the lid is 4oz alone, so you can remove that and any extra straps (they come LONG) and get pretty darn close to the weight of the 33. Plus, do you really want to be struggling with getting all your gear into/out of a barely-big-enough pack in winter whilst assaulting peaks?

Edit: I know you mentioned you're decided on packs, but what about the Hornet 46? Considerably lighter than the Talon 44, almost the same volume, and has frame and frame sheet. I'd love to try one out myself. Just a thought.

Doubtless you know best what works for you but since I'd take something of a different approach, here are a couple comments to take or leave. I think they are pretty consistent with what a lot of people would take alpine climbing.

Mountain Hardwear Ultralamina 15 (2lb 13oz)

Yes for multiday, no for overnight. If you need a sleeping bag, down should stay dry enough for one night. However, if you can dig a snowcave, instead of a sleeping bag I would take a warmer jacket, puffy pants, and a shovel. This is more versatile and has worked for me. I don't think it is riskier because it gives you more of an incentive to turn around before you get in trouble.

TNF Simple Bivy (1lb)

No

Thermarest XTherm Small- 12oz

No. Sit on your pack and snowshoes

Thermarest ZLite Sol (cut down) -10oz

Yes! Definitely. Less warm than an inflatable but more redundant and faster to deploy.

MLD Hammock Tarp (5oz)

Yes.

Arcteryx Atom SV (1lb 1oz)

Go next level up in warmth. Down should stay dry enough for one night. You're in the northeast; I like the Wild Things belay parka. There is your sleeping bag.

Patagonia Super Cell /Golite Paclite Rain Pants (1lb 4oz)

Sure

1 pair Wool Socks

This is an extra pair, right?

Mountain Hardwear Ghost Whisperer (windshirt)- 2oz

Sure. I like a hooded one but you have hoods on other things

Polartec Gloves (2 pair)

I'm guessing this is fleece? I would do one soft shell pair and one pair of puffy mittens that fit under your liners

MLD eVent Rain Mitts

Yes

Hat/Wool Bandanna

Cool! Where do you get a wool bandana?

So my clothing/gear in the pack is like 8-9lbs. Then there's the other stuff:

First Aid/Repair/Light- 5oz

Skip the first aid and repair

Wood Stove/Pot- 8.1oz

Here I am confused because I assumed you are going above treeline. Below treeline I just make a fire. Above treeline I would bring a stove. Carry the canister and stove in your belay jacket so they are warm.

What do apinists bring?

Check out resources on cascadeclimbers.com and psychovertical.com

Here is what I brought for a two day moderate route in the Alaska Range

Plastic boots
Gaiters
2 p socks
Powerstretch fleece pants
Patagonia simple guide pants
Wool boxers
Belt
Wool ls tshirt
Patagonia r1 hoody
Patagonia Houdini
full zip shell pants
Shell jacket
Wild things belay jacket
Thin softshell gloves
Lobster mitt shells with puffy liners
Balaclava
Sun glasses in case

20L pack
Food
Nalgene in water bottle parka

Sunscreen
Knife
Toilet paper
Camera in a case

Group Gear:

shovel
Avalanche probe
MSR reactor
Foam pad
Climbing gear (rope etc)

Anyway, in getting back to your question, I dunno. Both those packs are too complicated for me but when I go out camping inthe winter, I take a 50l pack, and when I go climbing, I take a 30L, so the 44L would split the difference. I would get a cold cold world pack, though, since you are in the northeast. Support local. Otherwise there are many better alpine packs, including some of osprey's own offerings. Check out outdoorgearlab.com for a recent review of some.

Have fun!

> My 3-season pack has historically been a Buttermilk 40, actually, which is pretty cool. Great pack, huh?

Very much so. For a pack that is supposed to be stripped down I’ve never found it lacking anything.

Sadly I “broke” mine carrying hero loads (18lb base but 50+ total with food, water and other people’s gear — see photo) on my 8-day trip in Glacier National Park this year. The weight was apparently a bit much for its minimal aluminum rod frame, which snapped in two places. Boreas wants to fix it for me but I haven’t had the chance to mail it back.

I would probably simply take your warm weather bag and bivy, leaving the tarp behind. Combined with your puffy it should be enough to (uncomfortably) tackle an emergency overnight.

On my last winter summit bid we (my climbing partner and I) elected not to take either of those things and instead took a 2-person bothy bag shelter which we intended to share if necessary. It’s lighter and the shared warmth is surprisingly good.

I also forgot to mention that if you would like to have a small lid, the Zpacks Multi-Pack is an awesome little widget that fits very well on a fully loaded Boreas Buttermilks.

Wicked awesome info. I'm definitely following a lot of the advice given here, including ditching the inflatable pad and repair kit, and probably the bivy (I quite like a bivy, though mine is on the heavier side).

The wool bandanna is from Icebreaker. It's as cool as you think it is. Grab one! And yes, those were spare socks. I didn't list clothing worn, which would likely be a wool baselayer, some wind pants, and a light fleece jacket. The gloves are like, softshell without a WR layer. Not fleecey and soft, but quick-drying and pretty warm. I swap pairs into chest pockets when they get wet to dry out. I have a big puffy pair of mittens I can bring with me if I need them.

I am not in a financial position to replace sleeping bag or jacket. I like synthetic because it's mistake-proof, cheaper, almost as light, and useful in all conditions and extended trips. I'm just getting into winter mountain climbing, so if I really really go nuts with it maybe next winter I'll get the full kit including down. This bag/jacket should do fine, though, for now. The Atom is extremely warm.

Definitely taking a lot of this advice to heart but I think I'll be going with the 33. Especially now that I'm removing some stuff from my kit, I'll make it work. I came here asking what to remove, and BAM, you guys delivered! Thanks!

It looks to be a really good bag for a lot of the stuff I spend 90% of my time doing and will work as an "Oh, Shit!" bag for this winter hiking. The Hornet looks cool too, but you gotta pay for it! Absolute worst comes to worst and it doesn't fit everything in my living room, I'll return it and get the 44.

I did a little bit of this last year on Camel's Hump in VT, but I want to get more serious about it this year because I'm post-foot surgery now, so I can actually peak. I'll be doing this all winter, I suspect. Love it!

http://cascadeclimbers.com/articles/colin-haley-alpinism-equipment-for-alpinism-in-the-greater-ranges/

http://www.outdoorgearlab.com/Mountaineering-Backpack-Reviews

http://coldthistle.blogspot.com/search?q=Climbing+pack

http://psychovertical.com/

Awesome reviews and info. Thanks!

From Yvon Chouinard's climbing ice: " if you bring bivy gear then you will bivy"

Ditch all the bivy gear, move fast and light, stick to your turnaround time, bring a headlamp and be prepared to move after dark.

For winter day trips I use a 26 liter Wild Things Guide Pack. For overnights 40-45 liters. Multi day trips 55+ This is for winter technical climbing her in the Pacific NW.

Sound advice. I think I'll need to remind myself of it a lot. It's one of those little logical nuggets that can apply to a thousand different scenarios.

Still.
…Alpine bivying sounds pretty fun and I'd like to try it. Confession.

Now, for the wood stove, I'll probably ditch it for a white gas stove (when I can, if I need it and can't afford it i'll borrow. I bought my buddy Jim one for his birthday.) Good call on that. In my head, I was just going to break dead branches off and use those, but I kind of love/hate my wood stove. It's a 15 minute stress-test.

Also, found this article particularly helpful: http://www.summitpost.org/alpine-speed/772149

i'd ditch the hardshell top and bottom. i like to pull the plug on one or two day trips if the weather looks like it's gonna truly suck so i'm fine with a hooded wind shirt and if i think i might need something more on my legs i'd take a pair of wind pants or lightly insulated pants like the OR neoplume pants. if the sh!t hits the fan I'm climbing into my wt belay
jacket anyway. and in case you didn't know, the translation from french to english of "bivy" is "I've made a mistake" ;-)

I hope this question doesn't sound stupid. I feel obliged to say that I am NOT going to be ice climbing, or even carrying rope. If I can't walk it, I'm skipping it. I've only got maybe 30 hours in the rock gym, I'm not an alpinist (yet!)

But… What's a "belay jacket?" Is it literally just the puffy you wear when you're belaying?

"is it literally just the puffy you wear when you're belaying?"

max – your definition is factually accurate, but a *belay jacket* to many is so much more. think of it as a refuge. a security banket, a garment you have the utmost confidence in. a jacket that's there for really only one purpose, to keep you (hopefully) warm no matter what in a situation when you're unable to move. ideally, the jacket functions through a wide temperature range and moisture conditions including dripping or worse, running water. Until you've been truly in the suck and your belay jacket has made everything better, it might be hard to understand. It's much more than "just the puffy you wear while belaying."

I get what you mean. I've said it 20+ times on this forum, the Arcteryx Atom SV I own is wicked warm, synthetic (for wet), comfortable, durable, and freaking easy to spot from 500 yards (Electric Green). So I think I'm set there, although I'll need a shell if I'm going to deal with running water (it does fine in snow).

I really, really like my jacket and the situation you're describing where your world has gone to sh!t but, at least you've got the jacket- yeah, been there too. 25º or so in Maine, and raining/sleeting. I probably owe it my life, now that I think of it..

Basically yes, a jacket you belay in. Think of a puffy on steroids, very warm, with a breathable, but very water resistant shell.

http://www.wildthingsgear.com/wild-things/shop/outer-layer/m-belay-jacket.html?color=chili%20pepper

I have bivied in mine on one occasion, using my pack to cover my legs and the Jacket to cover the torso. Not pleasant by any means, but it did the trick, I am still here and have all my fingers and toes. :)

Ok, this might sound ignorant, but I am delightfully waffling between a deep fear of losing fingers/toes, and a deep desire to bivy in the worst conditions. I want stories.

Time to learn skills, practice, and slowly push the limit.

You guys have seen "Touching the Void," right? There's a warning to heed if I ever saw one…

"Still.
…Alpine bivying sounds pretty fun and I'd like to try it. Confession."

Well, planned bivys can be fun and amazing, unplanned ones, not so much.

Perhaps. I like "Type 2 Fun." Something about getting very serious and thinking your every move through because there's a real consequence is pretty invigorating. That's not to say I go looking for trouble, but I definitely put myself in positions that require absolute presence of mind.

Hiking Mt. Greylock during Hurricane Sandy was one of the best experiences of my life. Four days of planning. We hit the summit right before high winds and hunkered in the shelter, and did a bit of exploring during hurricane-force winds.

Here's a neat video. It's short, and Jim flies at the end:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBUNfoVG_Qo

(I'm recording and hollering)

Apart from that, being "stupid" in safer conditions is something I do all the time. A 20º bag and a foam pad when it's -12? Sure, I did it. But I was about 1000 feet from my house at the local lake. Not really a risk, but definitely not other people's idea of a good time. I was thrilled.

go to the library and checkout "the armchair mountaineer." or better yet, make your own mountaineering stories, they are in the end much better than the stories you will read from others.

Here are a few books worth reading Max:

Extreme Alpinism: Climbing High, Fast, and Light by Marc Twight
Alpine Climbing: Techniques to Take You Higher by Mark Houston & Kathy Cosley
Climbing Stronger, Faster, Healthier: Beyond the Basics by Michael Layton

Excellent. Will curl up with a couple of these and wait for snow. Thank you.