Atsko Permanent Water Guard DWR spray

Thanks for the info An-D. Yeah, i wish Stoic had their DWR process changed for the Vaporshell. Pretty good jacket overall, but crappy DWR.

I'm interested to try it out sometime. I've heard that Granger's is one of the best and longest lasting DWR's. Besides price, what made you go with the Atsko over Grangers?

My local ace hardware stocks this. Works well. Be careful with overspray. Dont ask how I know.

Don't forget: if the fabric is dirty, NOTHING works. And you won't see the dirt.
Atsko Sports Wash per the instructions on the bottle before you spray is the message.

Do not try to substitute silicone spray for fluorocarbon DWR!!!! Disaster awaits.

Cheers
PS: some other brands also work.

I picked it because you get more product per can (10oz vs 5 or so) and they claimed it was good for 25 washes. Plus, I already use their sport wash.

Tried search for the above on Amazon and got a multitude of sprays with different combinations of the words in "Atsko Permanent Water Guard DWR spray," but nothing the same.
Could you narrow it down a bit? Thanks.

P.S. Tried Polartec wash-in DWR for my rain top, but from An-D's experience, and my own with Nikwax wash-ins, doubt that the DWR was restored. Sounds like this product might do it, if I could figure out which product it is.

Roger, can you please explain your tip? Are you saying that this is a silicone spray and that you should 1st apply some sort of fluorocarbon DWR before this kind of silicone DWR spray can work properly?

The Atsko is a cross linked Fluorocarbon spray, so it works well, and is heat set. When you wash it and dry it, the drying will reheat the DWR and it will link together again to restore the DWR properties.

As for the specific bottle I bought:

http://www.amazon.com/Seal-Water-guard-Aerosol-Water-Proofing/dp/B000B13VHC/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1379817052&sr=8-1&keywords=atsko+permanent+water+guard

It's called Sno-Seal Permanent Water Guard (but is a product of Atsko, my appologies for the confusion).

I also bought the Extreme Water Guard, but have yet to try that out.

I think roger was referring to my post about atsko silicone spray. I was confused about the dwr product, didn't know they made it. The silicone product is apparently not good for modern dwr. It is great for tents and goodwill style outer wear for scout snow camping and stuff like that. Two different products. Snow seal is a third product from the same company.

I wonder what the differences are between the Extreme Water Guard and the Permanent stuff is suppose to be?

> Roger, can you please explain your tip? Are you saying that this is a silicone spray
> and that you should 1st apply some sort of fluorocarbon DWR before this kind of
> silicone DWR spray can work properly?

Aaarrgghh, NO!

Silicone spray leaves a soft and easily rubbed off finish. The silicone polymrs simply does not stick. It might be OK for suede street shoes, but it is NOT for back-country gear (with one exception).

The exception is a silnylon fabric. You can hit this with a silicone spray for a small improvement. You could for instance spray your silnylon tarp or tent once a year with silicone. Pitch the tent, spray, and leave sitting in the sun for a few hours to bond. Yes, surprisingly, silicone polymer does bond best to silicone polymer!

Now, techie details.

Silicone coating and fluorocarbon coating are fundamentally incompatible. If you use silicone spray on a fluorocarbon-treated fabric it won't stick, but it will prevent you from ever successfully applying any fluorocarbon DWR in the future. So never, ever mix them!

If you try to refresh the DWR without washing all the dirt off first, all you will do is DWR the dirt. The fabric won't improve. In fact, there will be (is) all sorts of 'stuff' on the fabric, even if it looks 'clean', which will be killing the DWR treatment. This includes skin oils!

If you wash your DWR fabric in the washing machine with ordinary laundry powder or detergent, you will be killing it. Read the label: apple scent, fabric whitener, bulking agent, enzymes … and they do not rinse out! They stay on the fabric and kill the DWR. Stuff like Atsko Sports Wash is a pure detergent with NO additives, and it will rinse clean.

In fact, it has been recommended that in some cases you may need to run the fabric through the full wash cycle with Sports Wash twice, just to strip off all the gunk from trees, skin and washing powders. A dummy run through the washing machine to get the washing machine tub clean is sometimes needed! It's a hassle, sure, but it works, and not getting the fabric clean first ensures rapid failure.

Oh yes – you must do the heat cycle when refreshing the DWR. The heat is what bonds the new fluorocarbon to the fabric and the old fluorocarbon. Read the label.

Cheers

Theoretically speaking, would it be possible to refresh a fluorocarbon DWR in the backcountry via a one half clear and one half black plastic bag, or full black bag put in full Sun for awhile and then maybe shaking it up while heated up? (in a warm climate, or in Summer for most others)

Or does it require a much higher heat than that can generate to properly refresh such a DWR?

Hi Justin

They often recommend using a tumble drier on medium heat.

Cheers

I think the temp needs to be somewhere between 150-200 F.

I have same results that An-D had with same Stoic jacket and the Snowseal DWR spray treatment. It seems to really improves repellant properties.

An-D,
Thanks very much for the clarification. Think I may wash the jacket again with the Sports Wash before applying the spray. But will wait a bit to see what you may have to say about the Extreme.

Thanks again.

It may be awhile before I try the extreme spray as I've treated my jackets already with the permanent water guard. That was good enough too best off water from the shower and I will see how it does in the field this coming weekend if it rains during an overnight.

They're only $9 a bottle, so a pretty good deal.

I'd recommend running your wash with hot water with no clothes or any detergent, or a wash cycle with other clothes with sport wash you aren't going to treat to get any detergent buildup that may be between the drums of the washer. Then wash your jackets in sport wash. That's what I did.

Thank you for the reply's Roger and An-D. I don't know much about fluorocarbon based DWR's as until currently i've only ever used Nikwax.

Does anyone know if Nikwax's claim about being more environmentally friendly/less toxic in comparison to fluorocarbon's is true or not? If realistically, there is not much of a difference, i would rather go with the latter since i've heard it lasts longer.

I believe nikwax is wax based, vs chemical. However…. There's really is no such thing as environmentally "friendly" in most cases… Just less environmentally harmful.

Now, if the fluorocarbon based ones are slightly worse for the environment initially, I believe it'll make up for it by lasting longer (not needing as frequent reapplication as nikwax).

That may be true An-D, but body toxicity is also a consideration for me personally (having had, and still having to some extent some health issues). I've come to understand that our skin can absorb a lot more than is given credit for. But if used on an outer, shouldn't be much of an issue i suppose.

> nikwax is wax based, vs chemical.

and wax is not a chemical??????

Cheers

Touche, Roger. Yes, both chemicals. Not sure if nikwax uses naturally occuring wax vs synthesized vs lab made fluorocarbons, etc.

You'd think I wouldn't have made that chemical vs chemical mistake considering I'm a molecular biology research scientist.

Well, i understood what An-D was trying to say, a more natural, nature based chemical compound vs a human made synthetic compound. Sure, there are plenty of toxins in nature but most of these are in relation to and concentrated with animal or plant defense mechanisms, and i don't know about you but i'm not in the habit of smearing cobra venom all over my clothes anyways…

And i certainly would prefer smearing something like beeswax on my skin rather than something like Grangers no matter how safe and non toxic the companies that make this stuff tell me it is.

Human made synthesized chemicals or nature distilled isolations and concentrations on the other hand, whole long list of toxicity in many different areas and applications. I'm not saying i don't use the latter, course i do, but i think limiting exposure is also a good idea too.

Roger and others, which other brands perform well in your experience? I've found Nikwak doesn't last as long.

Not speaking from experience, but from having read other peoples experiences and recommendations (mostly here, but also on some other forums), Grangers seems to be one of the top ones. The McKnett ReviveX is also usually highly rated.