Merino Sheeps Wool vs Alpaca Fiber–the show down, dun dun duh.

[Max Dilthey]

Quiviut: Fascinating.

I, for one, will wholeheartedly endorse the Quiviut revolution.

[Justin Baker]

Now that were on the subject of wool, is it worth treating wool stuff with lanolin?

[Anonymous]

"This is the first you've mentioned moisture management. Any more info on this? How much better is it and why?"

Yes, look up moisture regain properties of fibers for one. Alpaca absorbs less moisture vapor than Sheeps wool. Also, sheeps wool fibers are more solid in nature. Alpaca's are more semi-hollow in nature. There are pockets of hollowness in even the finer fibers.

Look at the difference between two other hydrophillic fibers, cotton and linen to understand how and why this works. Both contain a lot of absorbing cellulose, but cotton fiber structures are solid and ribbon like. Linen is tubular and quite hollow. Linen wicks/absorbs water faster and at the same time releases it significantly faster than cotton does. A big part of that is the hollow nature of the fiber, it will actually absorb and push up and out the moisture vapor like a straw in a sense.

"Also, what study is this on fiber size?"

Well, i don't have it bookmarked, and so will have to search around for it some. Tbc

"Also, sorry, more questions… What makes you say Ibex, Smartwool, and Icebreaker treat their wool?"

Reading their literature for one. These companies don't like to DIRECTLY mention that they used harsh and semi-toxic chemicals to remove the scales on their fibers–doesn't appeal to those who are health or eco concerned, however, these companies DO like to mention in a generalized way that they use special treatments to make laundering more easy. You have to learn how to read between the lines with corporations that make obscene amounts of money off their products. Marketing, it's all about marketing. They are selling you a product for profit, i'm not selling you anything and just talking about information that is easily verifiable if you would put just a little work into it.

Re: their claims of making laundering easier with wool–How do you think they do this and what makes the laundering easier? If you did some research, you would understand that it's all about the scales. I don't care too much if you are personally interested in alpaca or not and so i will not provide a hundred links and references to answer all your questions when i know the information is common knowledge and easy enough to research.

[Kattt]

Justin,
I would treat wool garments with lanolin every few washes, if you have the patience.
I recently read that wool bottoms, from base layers to baby diaper covers benefit the most from lanolin treatment, as it neutralizes urea…

[Max Dilthey]

Man, you come into OUR house touting a showdown and then can't back up anything?

I'm kidding. I don't need a court case. Just, understand that you're the 1,000th person on the internet to say "I have sources I don't want to find" or "Go do the research yourself."

To which I answer with a very definitive "no." I don't even know where to start. You obviously do.

It feels like you're here because you want to make a case for Alpaca, but suddenly, it feels like you're a lot less interested in doing that. What's the intent of this thread, if not to provide evidence?

[Anonymous]

"Is there a reason why alpaca wool isn't as common? Are alpacas more expensive to care for?"

There are various things to consider, especially if you live in North America, Europe, and the Middle East. Our western culture is founded primarily by Euros. Guess what Euros have had for a really, really long time, Sheep.

Alpacas by comparison, are a relatively new and "Exotic" animal to the western system and consciousness.

We've just been doing and using Sheep a lot longer, it's what we know and have known for centuries and in other places many thousands of years. However, there are ever more alpaca farms cropping up here and there in the U.S., Canada and the like. But there are still A LOT more sheep in the world and so it's a more common fiber and fabric. Ironically, Peruvians to keep up with the more mainstream, western markets are starting to use sheep more and more sadly, just as they are not eating their native foods as much anymore like Quinoa, but switching over to wheat and the like.

[Kattt]

For this, Merino could not have done it, not even close.

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=57112

And just for you Justin,here are a couple of Alpacas I made :)

[Daniel Pittman]

Holy crap, that blanket is beautiful! And you gave it away?! You're amazing.

[Anonymous]

Max, i will provide some links, like that study that found that it was primarily fiber diameter size overall which is what either bothered people's skin or made it a more comfortable experience.

But, i need to locate these.

Rearching the stuff i'm talking about is pretty easy btw. Just type in "fiber characteristics or properties of alpaca" do the same with merino, etc. Not hard at all. To answer all your questions, i would have to go through a lot of info again, to provide all the "proof" that you seek. Or i would have to write a small book, because there is a lot to consider with this stuff and the relativity of some of the factors.

Here is one link that indicates that Smartwool for example, buys wool with the scales removed to make laundering easier.

http://www.smartwool.com/discover/#mountain_smarts/why-smartwool

"Easy CareLike you, we'd rather be outside playing than inside doing laundry. So we've made most of our products easy care; meaning you can throw them in the washer and the dryer right along with the rest of your clothes.What helps set SmartWool products apart is the special process we use to make them as easy care as possible. Merino wool fibers have scales that catch on each other when agitated in the washing machine and causes products to shrink. We've solved this issue by putting our Merino wool through a smart wash that makes the scales smooth prior to spinning the yarn. This ensures your SmartWool baselayers fit just as great as when they went in the washer.To keep your SmartWool products looking and performing their best, always make sure you check the packaging or the care label inside the garment for specific instructions."

Let's read between the lines a little. They make the scales "smoother", no the make the fiber smoother by removing or filling in the scales and the reason why, is more or less what they explained about felting.

[Justin Baker]

I went to a muskox farm in Alaska a few year ago. They were selling a few muskox things. $125 for a beanie.

[Anonymous]

Very cute and well done Kat.

[Max Dilthey]

Justin,

That's what I'm talking about.

Let's not go to a double standard here, though.

You talked about how merino wol sheep aren't found in areas with harsh enough weather, so the wool quality is less. Then you say that Alpacas are becoming prominent in the western world. Wouldn't the alpacas wool then be lower quality, too?

You also talked about how merino wool companies use synthetics and "filler" to make up for qualities of the wool, and then say that synthetics need to be added to alpaca for practical purposes.

It's easy to make a case, it's harder to make a good case.

[Anonymous]

"I went to a muskox farm in Alaska a few year ago. They were selling a few muskox things. $125 for a beanie."

Musk Ox downy fiber is nice and pretty warm, but i think it's a bit over hyped and way too expensive. My wife and i were in AK recently and went to a place that had various different animals including some Musk ox. Since it was late spring/early summer and quite unusually warm for the time anyways, they were shedding. Let's just say, some fiber happened to be very close to the fence and somehow ended up in my wife's hands (i actually chided her a bit for it). No, we were not at a place that the Native Alaskans owned or operated.

Took forever to pick out all the debris and stuff. Ended up with about an ounce.

It's hard to say for sure, but i actually think Angora rabbit fur is warmer than Qiviut/Musk Ox fiber. In some ways it makes sense. Musk ox is a big, thick, bulky animal with fat reserves.

Angora rabbits are tiny, with very little fat reserves, they would need very, very warm fur to keep them warm in the cold while Musk Ox have other advantages besides their coats.

But Musk Ox fiber is much stronger and more durable than Angora rabbit fur. I would only use pure Angora Rabbit fur in the same way that we use Goose or Duck down, as a non woven, loose layer between synthetic fabrics.

[Anonymous]

"You talked about how merino wol sheep aren't found in areas with harsh enough weather, so the wool quality is less. Then you say that Alpacas are becoming prominent in the western world. Wouldn't the alpacas wool then be lower quality, too?"

No, actually that isn't what i said. I said the origins of Merino Sheep and what they originally were bred to, was not as extreme as what Alpacas have adapted too.

We're talking many, many, many, many thousands of years for these respective animals and their current traits developed from past adaption.

In recent times, Merino sheep have been started to be raised in more extreme climates, but major adaptation is not going to happen overnight, or even in a few hundred years. It does seem that with breeding programs, and with subjecting Merino sheep to more intensely cold climates like some of the Mountains of New Zealand, that Merino are starting to produce finer micron count wool. This, increases warmth. But imagine the same or similar sized fiber, and also semi hollow. That's Alpaca, and it's that way because it been bred over a very long time to a more extreme climate. For example, Polar Bear fur is extremely hollow, and yet the inner coat is also fine/small diameter. Most mammals that are adapted to extreme cold have fur traits in common. The outer guard hair is coarser and often quite hollow fibers, and the inner downy hair is extremely fine, very densely packed, and sometime also semi-hollow.

But yes, i suppose if someone in Georgia raises Alpacas over a thousand years or so, the Alpaca fibers will get coarser, more solid, less densely packed, etc, which will decrease warmth.

However, as far as cold for example, there are plenty of quite cold places in the U.S and Canada, and so Alpacas there will not appreciably change because ultimately animals probably have to adapt more to extreme cold than to heat in climates that contain both (i say probably because i don't know for sure, but it makes logical sense to me).

[James holden]

Too much intraweb gear "testing" here

Whos actually going to go out and field test alpaca base layers now … Rather than intraweb theorize about it

I would if my achilles wasnt torn

;)

[Desert Dweller]

Oh, oh me! I will…if someone makes em!

[Anonymous]

Actually Eric, one of the reasons of why i started this thread was not just to talk about Alpaca theoretically, but to ask if anyone here has used baselayers made out of it and what they thought.

But even then, to some extent, that would still be theoretical to me, because i would still have to go by my own experience, just as others would have to go by theirs.

Ultimately when we're talking to each other in general, we're sort of talking theoretic because we're subjective beings with different experiences, beliefs, perceptions, etc. And there is probably no such thing as a truly, 100% all the time objective person.

How many arguments have i seen on BPL about, "no, i had this experience with this gear" and someone says, "no, but i had this experience." Well, people might be talking from experience, but it's all still just theoretical to me until i have my experience. Thankfully we humans are more similar than we are different and we have certain probabilistic rule sets built into our reality (physics for example), and so commonalities also do rear their lovely harmonious heads too.

Welp, i'm waxing philosophic which is a sure sign i'm over tired and need to go to bed. Goodnight folks, if you have problems sleeping, i won't hold it against if you choose to count jumping sheep instead of alpacas, after all, i know sheep are and have been much more mainstream in that department as well.

[Richard May]

That's funny Eric, I was just poking around the web to see if I could find good alpaca base layer to test out.

I'm emotionally partial to Alapaca. I lived in Bolivia as a child so it's more like rooting for a sports team than 'scientific'

Are there any good Vicuña base layers out there… hopefully under $500?

[Richard Lyon]

Ah, Richard, you beat me to it, I was going to inquire about vicuna. Perhaps lined with eider down?

I am interested in the Komafram products, which apparently are due out soon.

My neighbors here in Bozeman offer Alpaca hats and helmet liners at $120 (see http://www.alpacasofmontana.com), just a bit less than a pure cashmere watch cap, which (so far) is the warmest piece of clothing, per ounce, that I own. I suspect that price is the principal reason that clothing manufacturers shy away from alpaca (and cashmere too). Cashmere works wonderfully in the backcountry – when I can find a piece that's either too old and moth-eaten for continued front country use or sewn stoutly enough to survive the rigors of hiking or skiing. What's the market for a $150 tee shirt? Generally not for those who purchase for athletic use.

However, I asked myself if I could justify an $80 tee shirt when Ibex first started selling them. That's what they cost when I converted to 100% merino use. Now competition has increased availability and driven down the price. Maybe that will happen with alpaca or cashmere someday.

[James holden]

Well the thing to ask …. Is how much harder, longer, stronger will you go with these $$$$ alpaca base layers

If the answer is not much … Then its really a moot point

Im quite sure that someone will buy em at a ridiculous price thoug to be "unique" once there is the appropriate fancy logo on there

;)

[Anonymous]

Cashmere is nice but its less durable and strong than both Merino and Alpaca ime. It doesn't have the great springiness and memory of Merino, nor the strong tensile strength of Alpaca. Plus there is a common mite that loves to eat mini holes in the stuff for some reason. Alpaca and merino don't seem to get attacked by this mite.

I haven't paid over 50 dollars for any of my Alpaca garments. Most of the sweaters, hats, and gloves I have bought at STP and were greatly discounted (but not great quality for the most part i.e not using the finest fibers). I got this really awesome deal on a used sweater made of 70% baby alpaca and 30% silk. Its VERY warm, but heavy.

Alas I don't think I personally will be trying any alpaca base layers since I've yet to see any ones affordable for me. I think anyone making or thinking of making them would do well to add some spandex to give it better wear properties.

Vicuña haha, maybe if I win the lotto… Same with qiviut.

[Anonymous]

Just recently i was doing some research trying to locate specific studies done on the comfort level of fabrics relating primarily to fiber diameter. I saw a lot of general references to such studies, but not a lot of direct links to such studies. Generally speaking so far, it seems a lot of this research ironically enough is related to Sheep's wool and people's so called "wool allergies". Researchers wanted to know if it was really the wool and related elements (oils, salts, etc) causing the adverse reactions. These studies referenced, found that it was in most people's cases not a true wool allergy but rather due to coarser fibers being used, and that this applied to other fibers besides wool.

So far, this is the closest i've come to finding a more direct research link. It's in PDF form.

file:///home/chronos/user/Downloads/comfort_CMSE_PDF%20Standard%20(1).pdf

I will dig around some more and see if i can find some more direct links.

Speaking from personal experience, some of my alpaca stuff feels a bit scratchy, prickly, and irritating and some of it feels really soft and doesn't bother my skin at all. It's likely that this is due, just like with Sheeps wool, more with overall average fiber diameter. Not surprisingly, the rare "baby alpaca" stuff i have, which is suppose to contain an average of much finer fibers, feels the softest and most comfortable on my skin.

But do a quick search on the fiber structure difference between Sheeps wool and Alpaca. You will quickly note that the scales on alpaca are less pronounced, less frequent, which leads to an overall smoother fiber. This will also affect comfort level as well. Granted, as i've been saying, lot's of the big name sportswear brands of Merino products either take off or fill in the scales of the sheeps wool, which is probably why like Kat said, that more people think that Merino is more comfortable than Alpaca. That, and like i said, the market for Merino is much more regulated and discriminated being much older, more established and mainstream, and being a very profitable market. Micron count is THE primary focus, and like a mantra in this market.

When buying Alpaca based garments, you're going run a bigger risk of being sold mis labeled, coarser, lesser quality stuff in general.

However, i don't think that will be an issue with companies like Kormafran.

[Anonymous]

and another thing..

:)

Also for Max. Harking back to our debate about tensile strength vs bending capacity relating to overall toughness and longevity of a fabric.

Linen is a perfect example. In some ways, Linen is the exact opposite of Sheeps wool. It has very little elasticity, but quite high tensile strength for a natural fiber. It's one of the most brittle garment fibers there are. This trait is why it tends to look perpetually wrinkled.

Yet, Linen is known for it's longevity and toughness despite it's lack of elasticity. When you're making a thinner and lighter weight garment, you're going to want higher tensile strength ultimately over high elasticity. (though adding elasticity in with high tensile strength can only help the overall strength of a garment).

What's cool about Alpaca is that it's got some elasticity (as compared to Linen), but significantly higher tensile strength than Sheeps wool.

I realize you might want more links to confirm the above Max, but i'm lazy and among fabric and fiber folks, the above is more or less common knowledge.

[Max Dilthey]

The intrepid journalist that I am, I'm glad just to be educated, regardless of my opinion :) so thanks for putting in the legwork. I'm gonna keep looking into this.

Ultimately, an Alpaca infrastructure is the first step towards me phasing out Merino, so we'll see how that progresses.

[Anonymous]

Like Kat said earlier, and which i basically agree with, Alpaca is not a perfect fiber, so one wouldn't necessarily have to completely switch over to this or that. A lot of us like to use various different things for different applications as most things have their strengths and weaknesses.

I guess all i was saying with all this longwinded preaching i've been doing of late, is Alpaca does have a practical, beneficial place in the backpacking world–not that it will replace everything else and be the be all to end all.

There's probably a reason why that new company Komafram is blending their Alpaca baselayers etc with some Tencel, for an example. (some of that may be purely practical in the sense that Tencel is much more plentiful, fiber uniform, cheaper, and even stronger-more durable than Alpaca).

But yes, i always highly recommend doing your own research and especially testing. If i had an Alpaca based baselayer, and if i liked it a lot, i would probably let others try it out. But yeah the costs are prohibitive for me, and for me that is one big weakness for Alpaca (baselayers).

[Author]

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