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Uber theoretical & prohibitively expense idea for the ultimate warm weather WPB rain wear

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PostedSep 2, 2013 at 10:17 pm

(bear with me, this for both newbies and non newbs alike). In some ways, non woven polypropylene (as in Dri Ducks, Frogg Toggs, O2, etc) makes really good WPB stuff because it breathes so well and doesn't require a DWR coating to work, and is very light weight. Part of the reason is because the actual material is just so innately hydrophobic–it makes nylon look like cotton–no, seriously. But it's weaknesses are really big. It's rather fragile in those forms and also there is the factor that even thin polypro stuff is a bit hot, despite the great breathability, because polypropylene is also very thermally non conductive–lower thermal conductivity than any other clothes fabric actually, so it holds in heat very well.

This got me thinking back to that dang UHMWPE and dyneema/spectra stuff again. Polypropylene and dyneema/spectra have two major things in common, they are both extremely hydrophobic and light weight in nature. However, importantly the latter is extremely strong and also, it's extremely conductive. I have some dyneema based long sleeves that i wear on my arms and legs for motorcycle riding, and it's amazing how thermally conductive it is, heat just passes right through it.

It would be the ideal fiber for WPB type fabric especially for cool to warm weather activities. How would you go about making it though? I think Tyvek homewrap, aka HDPE flash spun fibers which are then bonded under pressure and heat, holds a key. Put smaller, perhaps micro fiber dyneema through a similar process creating a semi-porous breathable but functionally waterproof fabric. It's funny, but in a sense, under a micro scope, tyvek homewrap and Polartec's Neoshell shell looks a bit similar, fibers that are criss crossed many times in layers in a non repeating pattern sort of like a layered chaotic spider web of sorts.

Alternately, i suppose one could also try weaving dyneema or spectra micro fibers in a tight weave and then calendaring it some, as well. Perhaps two thin layers on top of each other.

Anyways, it would have all the benefits of polypro WPB and none of the weaknesses. It would be a very cool, thermally conductive fabric, ultra strong and durable, extremely hydrophobic and probably not requiring a DWR, *and* VERY light weight all at the same time! Besides cost, what's not to like?

Actually dyneema and spectra type fiber and fabrics shouldn't be so expensive. It's not really that hard to make (many Chinese companies make dyneema and spectra fiber look a likes). However, it's muy expensive for two main reasons, there are only two major companies (that i know of) that make the "name brand", super high quality stuff and that's DSM and Honeywell the respective makers of Dyneema and Spectra…

AND the friqqin U.S. Military (probably also other military's as well) is buying up so much of the stuff that is being produced, because it's such a useful material for weapon protection, tactical materials like ropes, etc but they especially like it for the weapon protection properties. They line various vehicles with it, make bullet proof vests, etc.

Cuben Fabric on the other hand, uses the somewhat expensive dyneema/spectra type fibers and puts it through an expensive, specialized process, and so the stuff becomes uber expensive.

Perhaps we should form a BPL think tank and company and come up with a spectra type fiber based, forever lasting Ultimate WPB jacket!? Seriously though, such a fabric and WPB technology would forever change the game. Move over eVent, Neoshell, goretex, say hallo to my space age WPB jacket that lasts 10 times longer than yours and doesn't ever require a DWR coating, is a third of the weight of yours, and is a very cool/cooling fabric.

(p.s., Disclaimer– it may be the above poster doesn't have a clue what he is talking about, lives in fantasy land, and stays up too late too often which impairs his cognitive abilities).

James holden BPL Member
PostedSep 2, 2013 at 10:34 pm

companies spend millions and millions on WPB technologies … event, goretex, pertex shield, outdry, neoshell, WPB cuben …

the market is HUGE … which is why you are seeing all these companies trying to challenge gore

there is an extremely slim possibility that no one has thought about what youre thinking … something on the order of aliens coming to earth and blowing up the capitol, and then will smith blowing up the aliens back in turn …

but its likely someone has already considered it, and it was either rejected, or its in development at some ultra secret corporate lab

at the end of the day all this fancy technology wont make up for basic SKILLS in the use of your gear in heavy rain …

want to know the most interesting part of the last BPL "breathability" test …. that some house brand jacket, the stoic vaporshell, outperformed many of the fancy $$$$ neoshell, dryQ, active shell garments …

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/waterproof_breathable_technologies_part3.html

;)

PostedSep 2, 2013 at 10:47 pm

Well, every idea starts somehwere…

Actually, i don't think major corporations really want to build a WPB jacket that wouldn't need to be replaced in a lifetime or lifetimes. They like replaceable things, because it means more profit in the long run. Sure, some will make theirs a bit more durable than the next guys, partly as a selling point, but ultimately the average corporation don't want people to have such long lasting gear.

That philosophy and trend, seems to be much like the health care system in America and western medicine in general, "if it aint mended, don't mend it". Or rather, let's focus on treating symptoms rather than causes, because it's so much more profitable in the long run (not that most doctors actually think like this, but Pharmaceutical corporations do, and guess who funds the education, political lobby's, donations, etc, etc.)

But yeah, i actually have the Stoic Vapourshell jacket ;) It's not without it's issues either, as it's somewhat heavy and many have complained about the initial DWR coating, or rather lack thereof. But yes, it's very nice for the price and quite breathable. But what i'm talking about, it would blow the Stoic jacket out of our atmosphere. Out of our Solar system..ok, maybe even out of our Galaxy if we get down to it.

Yes i agree skills are ultimately more important than gear, but gear has it's place.

Ross Bleakney BPL Member
PostedSep 4, 2013 at 1:36 pm

I can see Eric's point, but I also think you are right — someone has to be the first one to think of it and act. If you think of some of the truly big breakthroughs that have occurred over the last few years, they seem rather obvious now. How about taking a plain inflatable mattress and filling it with synthetic foam. Better yet, design an internal waffle pattern so that you have many triangles, thus stopping the convection currents. Not exactly rocket science, but really clever and extremely successful. Or how about the Jetboil. They are pretty much becoming the standard stove on the PCT (the PCT!) despite the fact that they are pretty heavy. The design is solid (and now refined) but it is pretty much the same as what MSR built years ago (and did little with).

I also think the market follows trends, and those trends might not be what the ultralight (or even the standard) backpacking world wants. A Propore jacket seems crazy for backpacking (REI won't sell them) but they work just fine if you are really careful. Cuben wasn't designed for tents, but works really well.

The same is true for rain jackets, but it is especially true of wind shirts. Sorry for the thread drift, but you'll see my point in a minute. I started another thread asking for advice for non-chemical bug protection. Basically, I'm looking for a bugshirt to compliment a headnet. There were two basic ideas:

1) Button down sun shirt. No offense to the makers of these shirts, but if you are making them with buttons, you are obviously trying to do two things with these shirts, and I'm not interested in the second. I really don't care what I look like while on the trail. Serious bicycle shorts are serious because they look stupid when doing anything else (like playing basketball, walking around, etc.). So if the best shirt you can offer has buttons, chances are it isn't designed as the most lightweight, breathable bug shirt (or even sunshirt) possible.

2) Second, wind shirts. The problem is, most wind shirts are not very breathable. This makes sense, because they are designed (you guessed it) to protect you against wind. Companies now not only make them wind resistant, but rain resistant. I understand the value of this as well. I take a windshirt on those "10% chance of rain" days while dayhiking (I don't take a rain jacket). If it rains, I'll throw on the windshirt and head back to the car. Even if it keeps raining, I'll be a lot drier than if I just had my fleece. All of this explains why windshirts are not only not that breathable, but are getting less breathable (some new models are much worse in that regard).

The problem is, not everyone uses a windshirt in this manner. They don't use them as just wind protection. If they did, then they would use their rain gear (which offers plenty of wind protection). They often use them as a middle layer — a bit more warmth than just a T-Shirt, but less than a puffy jacket (or rain jacket). Folks (like me) also use them as bug protection.

All of this suggests that if you could build a really light, really breathable, bug resistant shirt, then it would be extremely popular. I have no idea how that fits into your idea, but I just want to throw that out there.

Justin Baker BPL Member
PostedSep 4, 2013 at 1:49 pm

Ross, what is your issue with buttons? I like buttons. When I'm facing away from the sun, I can unbutton my shirt to cool off a bit.

Ross Bleakney BPL Member
PostedSep 4, 2013 at 2:03 pm

I don't hate buttons, exactly, I just think zippers make more sense. I don't know of any windshirt made with buttons. There might be a few sweaters or puffy jackets with buttons, but they are rare. It is obvious that sun shirts are trying to look like shirts you can wear around town. Nothing wrong with that (not all hiking clothes have to be ugly) but it is obvious that they make sacrifices when designing it that way.

PostedSep 4, 2013 at 2:16 pm

Justin, good thinking and I'm sure some combination of these super-strong fibers with more ordinary but hydrophobic fibers could be "THE" answer.

Now, should they be non-woven fibers like Dri-Ducks uses? And should these fibers be held together with a bonding agent or is heat fusion sufficient? A bonding agent complicates matters and likely reduces breathability while increasing waterproofness.

Or are woven fibers a better answer? Likely the type of fibers used will dictate this to some extent.

So I do take your suggestion seriously but I'm SO busy prepping for the next mega disaster that I don't have the time or money to help you in this worthy quest. I only have seven rifles, two pistols, a shotgun and 20,000 rounds of ammo. Not nearly enough. Plus there's the bunker construction which is in a cost overrun due to the zombie-proof doors I had to install.

Seriously, good thinking and here's hoping someone like say, MSR or REI with deep pockets can look into it. MSR is fairly open to suggestions like this. Do some more research and contact them via e-mail after a call to see where the e-mail should be directed. It may turn out that it will result in an inexpensive solution.

PostedSep 4, 2013 at 5:32 pm

What were we talking about – oh year, rain gear.
Reminds me of college bull sessions.
Liked the disclaimer

PostedSep 17, 2013 at 9:38 pm

I just found this very recently.

http://www.wildsnow.com/7910/shell-jacket-is-tear-proof-5-ounces/

Too bad it will retail for 600 dollars. I'm not sure why they are using eVENT and not taking direct advantage of the ultra hydrophobic nature of the Dyneema itself (as in two thin, overlapping layers of the following)–they just have to fuse tightly woven but non ripstop fibers together a bit. If a cottage company bought bulk UHMWPE fibers directly from China, and set up a working process of making both the fabric and sewing garments, it could and should be A LOT cheaper than the above.

I'm thinking it would be a good idea to first design a water resistant windshirt since it's more simple and easy. One thin layer and could just be tightly woven.

If someone made a windshirt out of UHMWPE fiber, and sold it for less than 200 dollars, would anyone here be interested in buying it?

PostedSep 17, 2013 at 10:30 pm

It's all marketing and cost/benefit analysis.

Could companies make a new fabric? Sure. But why not keep making the old fabric, which you already have sourced materials-wise and you've already got the infrastructure for weaving it?

New fabric will likely only be developed as a challenge to the old fabric. Despite being sued for monopolizing the market several times, I think Gore still has a stranglehold over companies trying to develop their own alternatives, since the name is literally synonymous with performance in most of the top companies. The lexicon for this has even made "Gore-Tex" and "Waterproof Breathable" synonymous.

PostedSep 17, 2013 at 10:37 pm

There are already various garments/clothing being made with dyneema and spectra. Just no windshirts that i know of, and so far only one uber expensive WPB rain gear that i know of.

There is also spectra fabric sold in various weights and weaves one can buy. I contacted one company but never heard back though on prices, availability, etc. It may be they only sell in mass bulk quantities to establishments like the military, or bigger businesses. I told them i wasn't looking to buy in bulk and wasn't a business.

PostedSep 18, 2013 at 12:29 pm

Whenever I think about awesome ways to keep dry and body heat in, even in warm weather, I always think of the Magic School Bus episode (I think it was… Could be making it up) where the kids rub blubber over themselves to stay warm and dry.

Now that'd be lightweight, warm, and dry… But messy.

Sharon J. BPL Member
PostedSep 18, 2013 at 1:24 pm

I keep my blubber under my skin. Less messy, albeit also less stylish.

Justin Baker BPL Member
PostedSep 18, 2013 at 1:39 pm

Does blubber have more warmth per ounce than down?
Should I be using my blubber as an active layer or a stationary layer?
How does it handle moisture in wet/humid environments?

PostedSep 18, 2013 at 2:16 pm

From what I could find …
The conductivity of blubber is 0.00050 gm.-cal./sq. cm./°C./cm.

So not sure how that translates to Clo or whatever else we can use to compare to down :o)

But I think I've been wrong about the lightweight aspect. Blubber needs to be thick.

Sorry for hijacking the thread with blubber!

PostedSep 18, 2013 at 6:03 pm

I suppose this is Karma coming back to slap me in the arse.

Now i just need a little Sutra to go along with the blubber and the karma… hmmm… Grease me up woman.

(so, so, so very wrong)

PostedSep 25, 2013 at 7:28 am

Ok, so doing a little more digging, i found a company that sells 50 kilograms of 30D UHMWPE fiber yarn for the low, low price of around 1100 (slight sarcasm, but in reality much cheaper than any spectra or dyneema stuff, 50 kilograms of 30D yarn is A LOT of yarn!).

Here is the link: http://hshmpe.en.alibaba.com/product/806728952-218090799/30D_9F_UHMWPE_Yarn.html

If i could find a company that could weave the yarn into a fabric for me, i would be all set. Anyone know of a company that does custom weaving yarn to fabric or garment jobs?

PostedSep 26, 2013 at 1:44 pm

I'm not ready to invest a ton of money into this project yet, but I do want to make a prototype jacket for relatively cheap. I know very little about knitting so any feedback would be appreciated. I can buy 2000 meters of UHMWPE 100 micron yarn for a little over 60 dollars. I can also buy an Ultimate sweater machine for 75 dollars. I contacted the company that sells this knitting "machine" and asked them if it can handle fine yarns and could do tight knitting weaves.

This part of the reply I received The Ultimate Sweater Machine knits yarn from Sport weight 21-22 stitches = 4” on a 5-7 knitting needle up to 13-15 stitches = 4” on a 9-11 knitting needle. It is not an electronic machine – it is manual so it would take time to do this much knitting. It is a hobby knitter."

Please translate for a newbie knitter..

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