Warding off black bears, what has worked for you??

Totally makes sense to me. I'm going to guess about a 4" barrel as a compromise between carryability and sight radius. Thanks; appreciate the info from someone who's there.

The other approach is to carry a cheap little .25 or .32 auto. If a bear comes after your party, you shoot your buddy in the leg.

There was a recent story of two hikers who were attacked by a bear. The first hiker used bear spray and the bear stopped its attack and he was unharmed. The bear turned on the second hiker who used a shotgun (load unknown). The bear continued its attack and the second hiker was injured.

The problem with a firearm is that you cannot instantly kill the bear. And, it's going to be mad and MORE likely to attack after being shot (injured).

HikerDuane, That's interesting that you say black bears, mosey when yelled at night, Also to hear how mom chases cubs up a tree then moves away. (Sorry to hear about your dog BTW)

I know black bears maybe are not as worrisome as grizzlies, but I still don't know what exactly to do or how to handle a situation if I'm jogging and surprise a bear just feet away,

I have acquired an air horn from a fellow jogger and I'm trying to make more noise while I'm jogging since my experience,

"The problem with a firearm is that you cannot instantly kill the bear. And, it's going to be mad and MORE likely to attack after being shot (injured)."
—
While I would agree that it's low percentage (particularly when you factor in what adrenaline typically does to accuracy), you CAN kill a bear instantly with a firearm. Even a handgun. Here's one that happened a few years ago in Alaska- man snapped off a single shot from his .454 handgun and killed a bear dead in its tracks when he turned to find a bear charging him.
http://www.adn.com/2009/08/13/897940/twig-snap-alerts-dog-walker-to.html

I'm not trying to convince anyone to carry a gun. And not disputing that bear spray is more effective as a deterrent in general. It's why I carry bear spray also.

Yeah, I should have said won't instead of can't. As I understand it you are carrying for something other than bears. Very effective against those predators, if you know what you are doing, and I assume you do. :^)

This quote from the article sums it up well:

"Total luck shot," he said.

That happened in my town. More than one shot:

"He drew a Ruger .454 Casull revolver. . . . He's not sure whether he got off two shots or three, but one proved fatal.

"Total luck shot," he said." – Peninsula Clarion

So not exactly a Dirty Harry moment. And you can't just leave it there, according to state law:

"It also left him with a problem. After state troopers came out to check the bear and determine that the shooting was legitimately in defense of life and property, Brush had to deal with the carcass. The law requires a shooter to skin the animal or take it to a taxidermist." – Peninsula Clarion

Further, the skull of a bear, hide of a fur bearer, useable meat from an herbivore, and meat of a spring bear must be surrendered to the State. "Wanton waste" is policed pretty tightly up here. After the issue come up during a DLP incident on the Iditarod, they tweaked the Iditarod Race rules to 1) prohibit other mushers from passing a musher so engaged and 2) allowing other mushers help skin out and butcher the carcass.

Edited to add: yes, Dena, that struck me as odd – just count the empty cartridges in the cylinder.

I stand corrected, I was going off memory and thought I'd read previously he only had time to pull the trigger once. As it was a revolver, I'm a little surprised they weren't able to determine how many shots he got off.

Michelle, I'm sure the bear that came thru my yard a few years ago was getting habituated. If it had been shot at a few times, it might have improved its look on people. It was probably used to no one coming out to check up on it, or just people shouting at it. That same summer, they shot and killed three problem bears in the small community I live in, here in Kalifornia. I think it will have to be repeated as there was some trouble this Spring from at least one bear.
Amazed you have been able to go jogging. I'm getting older and it is getting harder every year to get motivated again. Of course I've been saying that the last 20 years now.
Duane

Dena brings up a good point in that bear spray is pretty much useless if a bear attacks you while in a tent.

Since you can't fire bear spray through a tent the logical choice would be a tarp so you can roll out and fire away with bear spray. Of course being zipped up in a bug bivy defeats the whole point of the tarp. Also some people think a tent is more of a physiological barrier to a bear then a tarp.

I use a tent because I live in the mosquito capital of the world, or at least it seems that way. Generally as I'm laying there waiting to fall asleep, I marvel at the thousand mosquitoes being held at bay on the other side of my tent inner, looking at me with their bloodthirsty little eyes. That's what stops me from switching to a tarp, except for winter. I completely agree a tarp would be better for dealing with bears, not to mention the wide open views.

Come on Dena, that's just a myth that AK has that many bugs. :)
Thread drift.
Duane

Good for you Dena! I would much rather encounter a lady with a handgun than a lady with a Rottweiler – the handgun won't decide by itself to attack me!

Duane-

This was a weird year. May and June were probably the buggiest I've ever seen up here. But it was so hot, and so dry, that by July they just went away. Now I hardly ever see a mosquito. I'm half tempted to do this weekend's campout with the fast-pitch setup on my tent and leave the inner at home.

Dena,I'm headed down towards the Mammoth Lakes area in the eastern Sierra after working half a day today. Since I work out of town, I had to pack stuff up last Sunday. Mismatched the poles for a couple of my shelters, so I may be sleeping on my ground cloth unless one of the other four people who are coming bring a tarp for me. It would be fine, but it does get cool down there.
Duane

I stumbled upon a post that using an air horn provoked a bear, and rather than repel or scare the bear away, apparently for some users, it actually did quite the opposite.

Sooooo…I did some research on using air horns and apparently, air horns has been known to sometimes startle a bear and provoke an attack.

Found an article here
http://safety.eas.ualberta.ca/node/13#Avoiding

Below is a quote:
"Noises that cannot be reproduced in the wild, (e.g. a metallic noise), will let a bear know that you are approaching and give them advanced notice to move out of the area. However, noisemakers that startle a bear, such as an air horn, can provoke an attack. If you release an air horn too close to a bear hiding in the bush and it startles them, they may charge. Bells may work well in remote areas where bears have not had a lot of contact with humans, but in areas where they have become accustomed to humans, a human food habituated bear may approach a person wearing bells. Bells do not make enough noise to warn a bear of your approach unless you are wearing several bells. A can partially filled with rocks makes a loud clattering noise and is very effective in letting bears know of your presence before they pick up your scent."

http://www.bearsmart.com/bear-management/non-lethal/tools
"In some cases, noise deterrents do not work either because the bear has habituated to human noise or because it has no natural fear of the noise. For example, a habituated bear is very unlikely to respond to a vehicle siren if officers remain in the vehicle. Unlike human dominance techniques which speak the language of the bear, a bear may have to be taught that noise deterrents are followed by an unpleasant or negative situation. However, once a bear makes the association, an officer may only have to cock his shotgun to make the bear leave"

And this one: Bear actually ran TOWARDS the sound of an air horn, not away, twice!
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=19664

---

My concern is that the area where I jog, has some very thick, dense areas. Also, the bears are used to humans coming down the trail every day, which seems to have both pros and cons. Combined with the fact that I plan on continuing my daily jogs during the time while the bears are bulking up into the Winter months, on through hibernation into Spring when the bears wake up. (Weather permitting ofcourse, since we have many days of sunshine, or 40 – 50 degrees during the day, and even after snowing, if it's small amount, it usually melts right away)

So I guess I will just talk loudly, sing, and fill a can partially full of rocks and make noise up the trail in those areas and around blind corners, instead of air horn. :)

Makes sense to me. Somebody let off an air horn in my ear, I might smack them too. And I've never smacked anybody in my life.

Interesting the mention of a 'metallic' noise. I didn't mention this in my earlier post, because I kind of figured your bears were too human-habituated for it to be good advice. But out here in the wild, we are taught as children that the most frightening sound for an animal is the clanging of metal, because it's a completely unnatural sound, and it reverberates and carries over a long distance.

So even though it isn't ultralight, I carry a steel water bottle. My tiny steel-cased camera is on a shoulder strap. And that's my bear banger.

Haven't used it on a bear (except to announce myself when I see bear sign, is this why I rarely see bears?), but I have encouraged large moose to walk a different path. And startled squirrels out of my lunch.

Edit to add: there are two black bear stories in Atlantic Canada's news this morning. In Nova Scotia, two women found themselves very near a bear. They dropped their bags, the bear went for the bags. Then they ran, and the bear followed, until they happened across a cabin and went inside. The bear waited outside, they called for help.

In the second, a man in Gros Morne National Park says he almost walked into the rump of a feeding bear (berry season). He quietly backed away and didn't think the bear even knew he was there. A Park Warden later told him that oh yes, the bear knew, he just didn't care.

This had me thinking about what happens when people run from a bear. We always hear that it excites the prey instinct, and probably so. But maybe it also excites the PLAY instinct? The bear that followed the women to the cabin could have had them at any time, but didn't. Think about what you do when you want to catch a running dog. You get the dog's attention and run AWAY from it. Because then the dog will chase you. It's a game.

Bogs and Bergs,

Interesting, you mean bears might like to "play with their food" like cats do, OMG, that's enlightening. lol. Although I can see how it might trigger play instict,

So even after they dropped 'food', the bear actually followed "THEM", and then "politely" waited for them outside, when he/she could of easily knocked them down as they ran or ripped open the front door and entered the cabin, hmmm…

And as far as the guy almost walking into the rump of a bear feeding on berries, the trails I jog on are loaded with berry bushes, which has been my main fear. What shall I do if I accidentally run right up to one feeding along the trail, However, I like the idea of carrying metal. Either banging on it or shaking partially filled can of rocks before entering those areas to begin with, should help, I hope.

Some of those bushes are so large and so thick, I can't see through them and even though I always make noise but I still think, "Gee, what if a bear is too busy enjoying his favorite berries to care about my 'noises' and so then I round the bush and there he is!! AHHHH

I just learned something last night I didn't realize, I've been wearing a perfume spray, in case my deodorant is failing, not to offend anyone passing me one the trail, lol.

I feel like an idiot for even having to say this, but the fragrance is called "Cherry Blossom"…. "HELLLO!!!" Maybe THAT may be what brought that bear out to run up the trail behind me, Makes me think, how could I be so stupid!

David,

That was a great video. Their calmness provides a good model for me if I ever encounter a grizzly.

I couldn't help wonder if they might have been carrying a gun just in case the grizzly didn't understand English. . "Speak softly and carry a big stick".

While watching the video I could almost taste my urge to run for my life.

Daryl:

Yes, I'll try to channel Erin's calmness the next time I'm facing down a grizzly.

No, Hig and Erin go UL to SUL and carry spray but no gun (6-7 pounds you can't eat, wear, or cook with). They stayed with us on their 800-mile, human-powered, with-two-toddlers trip this summer. The west side of Cook Inlet is pretty bear-infested, but again, they brought spray and no gun.

Actually – the biggest non-UL gear they had was the 2-year Lituya: 24 pounds and she isn't self-propelled, has to be carried, you can't eat or wear her, etc.

My face has worked for me because every time I see a black bear it runs the other way, sometimes resorting to ridiculous means such as crashing down steep poison oak infested embankments or running up hill through scree and talus. Not exactly a confidence builder for my self image. I mean I know I don't look like Brad Pitt, but do they have to run away in that hysterical terrified manner every time?

My girlfriend and I saw a Grizzly about 1/2 mile away in Yellowstone several years ago, but a Ranger arrived and the Grizzly took one look at him and ran the other way at about 35 mph. It was frightening to see how fast something that big could run. Luckily it ran the other way, although we were both sporting bear spray-so was the ranger.

This spring here in NorCal near Sacramento a man was tired, it was late, so he pulled over his car, threw out his sleeping bag, no tent, and went to sleep on the ground in the open. He woke up several hours later with a mountain lion paw on his face. A fight ensued, and I imagine it is hard to fight a mountain lion from inside a mummy sleeping bag, but somehow the man put up a good fight, got scratched a quite a bit and drove himself to the hospital. His sleeping bag was a total loss with about a dozen 3 ft. scratches running up and down it's length. There was a picture of it in the Sacramento Bee.

In another mountain lion incident this spring a hiker on the Stevens Trail near Colfax in Northern California reported a mountain lion circling him on the trail. He called the Highway Patrol on his cell phone and the CHP helicopter flew around above him and scared off the lion. Later a game Warden hiked down the trail, turned around and the mountain lion was in a predatory crouch about ready to jump on him, so he shot and killed it. Unfortunate, but that mountain lion had some issues.

Some times I think it is still the Wild West out here for a number of reasons, some of them having to do with wildlife. Both mountain lion incidents were reported in the Sacramento Bee if people want to search for the articles.

There has been a few mountain lions over the years in the area where I jog, and I know DOW killed one just this past spring. it was killing peoples pets and children couldn't safely play outside.

A fellow jogger told me she seen a cougar close to the trail last year, that would not leave and was lying down, she called DOW and they shot it.

---

e
Same with coyotes, who were killing pets in the area. Several accounts of them chasing children.

Coyotes have attacked hikers & bikers, I know there was a lady this year who was bitten in the calf. She attempted to run away. Which must of excited the coyotes predatory instinct to catch his prey. Gee.
http://www.dailycamera.com/ci_22300164/coyote-bites-boulder-jogger-skunk-creek-trail-further

Over the years, there seem to more and more of an issue as cities grow larger into lion/coyote/bear territories.

---

I had an experience in my teens w/ a pack of hungry coyotes that encircled our mobile home and would not leave. I was at my cousins house and their parents went to town and left us alone. (They lived on a farm outside of town). As soon as they left,my cousin grabbed his pellet gun, and said "here we go!, this happens every time my parents leave, but my dad doesn't believe me".

Even while my cousin was shooting a pellet gun at them out the back door, the coyotes continued to move in closer and closer! He kept trying to scare them away w/his pellet gun. They were digging along the bottom of the mobile home, trying to get in when his dad (my uncle) finally came home, grabbed his rifle and began shooting them, After he shot 2 of them, the rest trotted off. They didn't run per se, just trotted away, looking back at us now and then. (He finally believed he was telling the truth then, lol)

Another time I stayed there, we slept in a camper parked on their property about 500 ft. down the road from their home. We were making cookies, but needed one more ingredient from the house. It was dark out, full moon and as we were walking up the road to the house, when we were chased by a coyote, I ran as hard & fast as my little legs would go, lost my show, lol.

Luckily it was far enough away when it began chasing us, we had time to reach the house. As we got almost to the house, we could hear it running, (that was scarey!)
We hid in the house for awhile, then took the pellet gun with us on the way back, but didn't see him any where.

I lost 2 cats last summer to coyotes, and we hear them howling at night.

---

After my experience with the bear, I hadn't given any other animal that much thought, lol, but that's to all your responses, now I am much more aware and make noise up and down the trail in thick areas and blind corners.

Still scared when I go through the area I seen that big bear, I sing, make noise and yell hey bear, hey bear. I think is he/she would have been smaller, it wouldn't have bothered me so badly, but this guy was HUGE, I'm 5'5" and he cam up to my waist.

I'm still too scared to go any further up that trail any more, I've been turning around right there and going back the other way every day ever since.

I guess the lessen is, we should always be aware of our surroundings and respect their "house" as we go running/jogging/biking/hiking through the middle of it, lol

Total thread hijack: John, were you hiking out of Pine Creek a little over a week ago? You look familiar…

Michelle I think you're worrying yourself too much over this. Here's my theory. Black bears are not mini-grizzlies. It is almost impossible to provoke a black bear into attacking you, they just aren't interested. You aren't going to help matters by wearing bear bells or yelling "hey bear."

We tend to worry about things we think we control and fatalistically accept other risks that are pretty much beyond our control. I don't know anyone who stays up at night worrying about a heart attack for example.

The most likely scenario for a black bear our mountain lion attack is a predatory animal. Honestly I think its best to think of such an event is sort of like a heart attack. Its so impossible to predict and we have little control over it.

There really isn't much you can do about a predatory attack except have a something ready in case it happens. I'd get some spray or whatever "deterrent" is legal and you are comfortable with. After that you've done the best you can do, just enjoy the woods.

Incidents are clearly more prevalent in areas near civilization vs wilderness. Two main reasons being more people around, so simply statistics. The second reason, is the habituation to Humans and the goodies they often carry. I would tend to be far more concerned with an animal encounter on a local trail run than on a backpacking trip in more remote wilderness.