Question re recently purchased used WM Versalite

[Dena Kelley]

I recently purchased a used WM Versalite off ebay. It seems to be in great shape and in all appearances appears to be genuine (WM tags, bag, stuffsack all intact) but oddly the neck baffle is different. On the WM site, the neck baffle is a full baffle, all the way around, but on the bag I purchased it has a stuffed baffle on the top of the bag but only a drawstring-tightening unstuffed baffle on the back of the bag. Is this an old design? A modification WM does on request? If it's old, do I need to be concerned that the old down inside won't keep me warm? I'm in the process of letting it fully loft so I can measure the loft on it today, and I'm going to weigh it, but I just thought the neck baffle thing was strange.

[peter vacco]

keep in mind that it's a very light bag, and they are not overly puffy to start with. mine had some thin spots when nearly new, and it was never really all that secure (warmth wise). on the other hand, it was pretty darn light.

[Roger Caffin]

Can you move the down in the baffle around? Could it have just all migrated up one end of the tube?

Cheers

[Dena Kelley]

Peter-
Was your experience that the Versalite was not truly comfortable at the rated 10 degrees? If not, what did you find the comfort rating to truly be? I understand that's very subjective. I generally take the EN rating and deduct 20 degrees for myself personally, so I was assuming the Versalite would be comfortable to me to about 30 degrees.

[Dena Kelley]

Roger-
Hm, there's a thought. I'll check it when I get back home. The lower baffle is completely devoid of any fill, currently, but I'll check to see if it's continuous or separated.

[rOg w]

deleted

[Dena Kelley]

rOg – That explains it. It's teal. I didn't realize there was a difference. I wonder if the temp rating is still 10 degrees. Hope so.

[M G]

Normal in older versions of this bag. I've had two. Both like this, both cold. Newer models have full collars. Rating was 20 for mine, not 10.

[Dena Kelley]

Well crud. I wonder if WM could be talked into adding the modern neck baffle for a fee.

[Dena Kelley]

First, thanks to all the folks that answered my questions earlier today. I appreciate it.

I got home and the loft of the bag seems fine- it fluffed up to 6" in most spots. This is definitely an earlier version of the Versalite, the back neck baffle does not have fill and is sealed from the front part of the neck baffle that has fill. It doesn't look like it would be hard to add fill by simply slitting the seam on one side, adding fill, and re-sewing it. I'm tempted to buy a few ounces of 850 and see about doing that. The bag weighed 2 lbs 6 oz on my scale, which fits as the seller described it as overstuffed. So long as it keeps me warm down to 30, I'll be happy. Anything better than that will be frosting on the cake. :)

[Roger Caffin]

Hi Dena

> simply slitting the seam on one side, adding fill, and re-sewing it. I'm tempted
> to buy a few ounces of 850 and see about doing that.
Do it. Just go and do it.

Cheers

[peter vacco]

" Do it. Just go and do it. "
ya. he's right.
stop dink'n around, and add some down. you'll love it.

my exp with the versalight was not at all terrible. it's a light bag. it has lining that has so very little mass that you are warm immediately, which is quite nice. the deal was, that it was not very tolerant of moisture. i have mentioned this before, but you can get down, which is as natural a substance as can be had, that is good .. or bad, with water. it depends on the luck of the draw at WM that day.
mine pooped out on a CDT walk. it was a bother, but not a tragedy. somehow, i lived thru it.

of my current WM bags, the Dry Loft Apache is great when damp , the Highlight .. not so much.
that Versalight i had was AWESOME when new, but a few weeks later, and a damp packing or two, was no longer impressive.
i had the usual moving around of ever decreasing clusters etc. where that bag is today, i have no idea.
so, it was oK, but could really have used a bit overstuffing.

you have in your hands a wonderful creation. it's "nice". it will be even better once you put some effort into it, add insulation, and make it the butt-kicker of a bag it should have been in the first place.

i did not read all that great your post. did you wash it good with the correct soaps, and then dry and fluff it ?
you want to do all of that to get maximum return off of your work.

[Dena Kelley]

So I followed your advice here and got a good down wash and washed my new-to-me used WM Versalite. Wow, what a difference! It seemed clean when I got it, but washing and drying it sure fluffed it up. I think it will make a big difference in its insulating capabilities. Thanks for all the advice here. I will seek out some down to stuff the back neck baffle with. It gets its first test run this weekend when I go out on an alpine overnighter with my Meetup group.

[Sara Marchetti]

Interesting. I'll have to check my Alpinlite when I get home. On a good note, all the reports and tests I've read said that WM bags sleep much warmer than the advertised temp (10 degrees on average). Of course, the perception of warmth will very from person to person. With the drawstring neck baffle, very little cold air is getting in or out of this bag. The hood cinches so tight you get get it down the diameter of your mouth if you want, lol! More often than not, when the night time temps are above 40, I use my bag as a quilt.

One thing you can do if it sleeps a little cold is to send to back to WM and they can overfill or refill the bag. You never know what you get when you buy used. The fill may have lost some of its loft due to age, constant compression from being in a stuff sack for too long, or getting wet. The prices for a refill or overfill seemed very reasonable to me.

And yeah, once the bag is washed and aired out it puffs up like a downy balloon; so nice and warm!

[James holden]

On a good note, all the reports and tests I've read said that WM bags sleep much warmer than the advertised temp

no … you can find the en-rating for most popular WM bag online

no amount of brand naming will make a bag warmer

;)

[Dena Kelley]

I think the difference is that WM uses the EN rating as their bag rating, where some others (Kelty comes immediately to mind) rate their bags differently. For example, I have a Kelty Womens Cosmic Down 20, which they advertise as a 20 degree bag. However, the EN rating on the bag is 32. For someone who sleeps cold to start with, that isn't good. So I appreciate that WM uses the EN rating and not their own rating.

[James holden]

thats a problem with many "womans" bags in general … and quilts …

even WM …

take the modern verrsion of your versalite … as far as i know there is no womens specific version … WM rates it as -12C … the en-comfort rating is -7C … or 10F for men, 19F for women …

http://www.outdoorfeeling.ch/cgi-bin/detail.pl?id=84046516&produktid=2724

the kelty cosmic womans down 20 is a rated en-comfort to 32F for women

http://www.kelty.com/p-697-womens-cosmic-down-20.aspx

WM is no more "honest" in this regard than any other company

a womans sleeping bag of the same rating as the mens one should generally be HEAVIER and have MORE fill

;)

[Dena Kelley]

I know in my case personally- and this is very subject and varies by the individual- but for me, I take a bag rated for 20 degrees lower than the coldest temperature I expect to see. I have thyroid disease and am a very cold sleeper. But at least with the consistency of the EN rating, I have a good starting point.

[James holden]

its actually a topic that keeps on popping up again and again … usually in a bad way … many women assume that normal temp ratings apply to them … unless you have a different metabolism it doesnt

1. ignore whatever rating is on the tag

2. always look for the en-comfort rating … NOT the lower limit "comfort" one … one average theres ~ a 10F difference

3. if you cant find a big name sleeping bag that doesnt have an en-rating … i suggest walking away, theres no excuse for the big names not to rate em

4. if its a smaller manufacturer … check the amount of down fill against other bags/quilts which are known to be decently rated … and the ADD 10F to the temp … ie a 10F quilt becomes a 20F one for you … if a company does not list the down fill in a bag/quilt, walk away

5. if you are a small thin woman with low body fat … i suggest even more margin 15F+

6. get the warmest sleeping pad you can

ive seen enough women freeze because of insufficient insulation … i dont mind really as it means they jump in with me …

remember that just because some BPL men are fine with these super light quilts/bags, doesnt mean that women can ignore the metabolic realities

more info … http://www.mammut.ch/images/Mammut_Sleep_well_pt1_E.pdf

;)

[Sara Marchetti]

"ive seen enough women freeze because of insufficient insulation … i dont mind really as it means they jump in with me …"

This is why I purchased my WM bags with opposing zippers! The down side is that this means the dog joins us :(

[Sara Marchetti]

"
WM is no more "honest" in this regard than any other company"

And I think it is for this reason why I've heard that many consider WM bags to sleep warmer.

[J C]

"WM is no more "honest" in this regard than any other company"

Well, they sort of are, because their quoted ratings ARE typically a little more conservative than the EN "limit of comfort" ratings, which is the number most manufacturers use to rate their bags. It's convention and probably we would all be better served if manufacturers used the comfort rating instead, but until they do I would say WM's numbers are a little closer to reality than most.

[James holden]

I would say WM's numbers are a little closer to reality than most.

nope …

the summerlite is ~35F lower limit comfort men … while they "rate" it as a 32F bag … for women its a 43F bag

Temperature Rating. EN 13537 tested:
T comf: +6ºC
T lim: +2ºC
T ext: -14ºC

http://www.outnorth.com/western-mountaineering-eu/summerlite.php

you can read about some BPLers having a bit of "warmth" issues at those temps with it

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=44236

all the fanciest name brands or BPL positive thinking wont make a bag warmer

;)

[David Ure]

I certainly never found WM bags any more warm than their ratings. Their EN ratings appear correct. Maybe some can't let go of the WM mystic?

[Turley]

I agree with Eric in regards to WM temperature ratings. I've used bags from most top flight manufacturers and find the cut of the bag, fill weight, and corresponding temperature rating truest in Valandre and Feathered Friends…..

Comparison:
WM Summerlite Short, Advertised as a 32F Bag
Shoulder (59"), Hips (51"), Foot (38"), Down Fill (8oz)

Valandre Mirage Short, From their catalog regarding temperature ratings/limits:
Comfort (39.2F), Limit of Comfort (30.2F), Extreme (1.4F)
Shoulder (57.1"), Hips (48.4"), Foot (34.3"), Down Fill (11.9oz)

The Valandre Mirage has a more narrow cut and substantially more down than the Summerlite, which should in theory make it a much warmer bag….yet the EN comfort is set at 39.2F. I believe they are advertised as a 30F bag (the EN Limit of Comfort) which I tend to agree with having used one at these temperatures regularly throughout the shoulder seasons.

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