Why do we have to wait for gear?

[Adam Rothermich]

FWIW, Tim does have some "stock" items. Mostly RevX 20* and 30* in standard black/black. They have the shells made up and stuff them when the order comes is, presumably so you can still choose overstuff if you want. The site claims average wait time is 3 days versus the 3 weeks I'm going to wait for mine. Personally, I don't mind the wait if it means I get the color combination and options I want.

Adam

[Corbin Camp]

When I drop the cash for a big ticket item made how I want it, I want the builder to do it right. If that takes a little time, so be it.

[Bob Gross]

Six months ago I ordered a cuben fiber item from one of the cottage manufacturers. Four or five days later, I received the package. The correct item was not included. Instead, they shipped the raw cuben fiber material and that was all. (They don't even sell the raw material.) Obviously, I raised hell with the company. So, four or five days later, I received the second package with the correct stuff. I certainly don't intend to ever do business with them. If they can't get my first purchase correct for a single simple item, then they probably don't get another chance. There seem to be other cottage companies that get it right the first time, even if it takes them some days to do it.

–B.G.–

[Tim Marshall]

How is EE in the same boat?

Our longest wait is 3 weeks and its normally just over 2. As stated by Aaron we have a number of items Instock and ready to ship in a day or two. How long should it take to build something from scratch with literally thousands of possible configurations and options?

We are ramped up full speed. We can build hundreds of quilts each month and each week build stock as we never have as many orders as we can handle. I see companies with wait time out past 5-8 weeks or all their products out of stock. That isn't us and any comparison to that is totally unfair.

-Tim

[USA Duane Hall]

Hi Tim, sorry for any finger pointing, just seems many small companies have a wait time for gear. Good to hear you are gearing up to get product out. You've done good to be able to make changes and move along and be in good shape to get some back stock. Sounds like you have been able to track sales trends and make changes for the better and keep sales growing. I'll shut up now, don't have a good way of expressing myself.
Duane

[Tim Marshall]

I get that waiting sucks. I just don't want to be the bad guy on this one. Since we relaunched oct 2011 our wait times have only gotten shorter. Minus the rare material sourcing issue our times have gone down instead of up so I just want to be the one guy in the clear on this issue.

I don't know how I could do it faster apart from moving my sewing out of homes and into a shop but to me that looses a lot of what I have worked to build. My sewers are essentially self employed contractors who set their own hours, weekly goals and each of them work dang hard to make high quality products at a pace I think is very reasonable for something built to order.

I have increased my stock massively in the last few months and this helps for everyone who needs products quick. I have also started allowing rush jobs for an exa $20 so we can take an order thurs and ship it wed for a true built to order product (nothing done up front) that flies out the doors. i haven't advertised this I yet as its still in trial stages but I think it has to be the best deal going for built to your specs gear done super fast

I'm not here to fight but I just needed to be heard on this one

-Tim

[Jared Baker]

"comes down to the owner what sort of vision they have for the business and subsequently the sort of complaints they are willing to tolerate."

I agree. Some, may not want to expand outside of a one-man outfit. Maybe they don't want to be responsible for employees, enjoy the hands on aspect of the business vs. managing, want full control over their products, etc. Obviously, they will have higher wait times than another cottage industry business who decides to to expand their operation to satisfy a greater number of customers, but also continue to offer customization.

What is great about pretty much all cottage industry businesses, is that they want to make their customers happy with high quality products tailored to them. You are not going to find that with the mass manufacturers.

The price? A longer wait time. Is it worth it? Only the buyer can decide that.

I'd much rather hear complaints about waiting than issues with quality control.

And fortunately, if you don't want to wait and cannot get an order expedited, there is always gear swap. I've witnessed many posts of ones wanting a specific piece of gear and the community takes care of them in a short time frame.

[peter vacco]

if you make something fairly decent, and price it reasonably, demand may well exceed production capacity during the season.
thusly, order times fall behind and people are then "waiting".
to reduce the waiting, one can reduce the demand load by raising prices. and that will work.
or, one can work more hours, and that ruins your life and your real job. it is not sustainable over time.
or, one can figure out how to make more product in less time. there are limits to that in the real world, and it can involve vast investments of capital in equipment that may, or may not, pay off. manufacturers work on that equation All the time.
or, one can outsource production to people who do not care squat about quality and things that have your name on them. that gets old pretty fast too.
or, one can work until demand exhausts inventory and stop selling for the year. and that will work.
or, one can work steadily, polish production methodology, keep prices reasonable, and generally figure out that in limited amounts, "waiting" not only costs the manufacturer almost Nothing, but actually Increases the value of his labor. and that will work.

so you see, in a cottage industry scenario, there are several workable choices.
—
i vastly prefer to sell from a position of having stock. it's much more fun to sell from a substantial quantity of already built gear. i do not enjoy being behind. but once the inventory wears off … wait happens.

more : i remain unresolved as to the morality of raising prices beyond what i think the product is worth. i know as a capitalist, i should let the market make that determination, and i am fine with that. but unfortunately, i was raised in a more confused environment, and so crossed signals can obscure the serene beauty of economic purity.

[Hiking Malto]

"As a person who has run a couple businesses – and currently works for a mom and pop organization as their sole employee in a company of 3 people- inventory management is very difficult, especially for small companies. Every business would prefer to have exactly what their customer wants, right now. But inventory is the highest cost of running a business outside of the initial capital expenditures (building, equipment) and employees. If these businesses are going to continue doing what they do best- making high quality custom gear- then carrying a great deal of finished product on their shelves takes money away from the day-to-day operations. Bear in mind they already have a high investment in equipment, raw materials, and people. Shelf inventory is money that's just sitting around. Every business I've been in has struggled with when to stock inventory and how much. You don't want to lose a sale, but you have to weigh that against what it would cost to keep inventory on the shelf. And many small businesses go under when they make a decision to start carrying inventory or to expand. So it's not a decision to be taken lightly. If you lose 10% of your inquiries because you've got a 2-4 week wait on your high quality product, that may be worth it weighed against the potential loss of your business entirely when you wrap too much capital up in carry on-hand inventory."

I started to write this exact post. There is also another element to consider when a business is rapidly growing like a couple of UL companies I know. As a business expends cash flow is critical. It is counterintuitive but trust me it is absolutely truth. Without an extremely high margin a Company can actually grow themselves to bankruptcy because they run out of working capital. Because of this keeping inventory at a minimum becomes one of the main tactics of successful small businesses.

[Desert Dweller]

All the business and economy babble aside…..nice things are worth the wait. Especially handmade, custom things. Quality takes time and dedication. How many people do you personally know who make a living producing custom products? Not many I bet.
I was a seamstress and had a one person business and that was while running a ranch and maintaining a family, which I am sure others here can relate to. My ensembles took four to five weeks to produce and were custom fitted to each person. I simply could not produce more than eleven of these ensembles a year, I did after all have to take a month off to rest! After two decades I retired to hike and paint and what a relief, no more cranky customers that "want it now".
So, why the wait, cause we can not possibly pull rabbits out of hats, that's why!

[Ryan Smith]

Enjoyed this thread. The waiting sucks, but I understand it is necessary in order for most of these businesses to survive. With that said, you do have to give high praise to those folks who make a custom product while still having quick turnaround time. Both Zimmer and ULA exceeded my expectations in that regard.

Ryan

[James holden]

vote with your money …

no one is forcing anyone to buy the gear … you dont NEED the gear .. there are plenty of alternatives that plenty of people use just fine …

i bet you can do just as much and have as much fun with some other gear

;)

[Jason Mahler]

To put it simple, you have to wait for your gear because this is what the market demands and how business works. Look at any business model and it is obvious that there is a trade off in what can be offered. For Zpacks, they focus on customization, cost, and quality over delivery time. If they focused on delivery time, they would either have to reduce customization, increase cost (more staff, more equipment), or lessen quality (temp workers, faster equipment).

If you look at the BPL forums for 5 minutes and you can see that most people prioritize customization and quality first. Cost is in the mix, but often not a main requirement if the first two are great. Delivery time is way down the list after these other two. Based on this, Zpacks strategy is excellent.

If you look outside of backpacking, this is the way of everything. Go to a restaurant. If you want great food, it is costlier and takes time to make. If you want specific features on a vehicle, you have to order it. Anyone in industry knows that you can't just get a custom part off the shelf, but in some cases have to wait months and even years to get it (try to order a 8" alloy valve for a chemical process…you will wait 24+ weeks for it).

[USA Duane Hall]

I have no intention with this topic, of making any gear maker the bad guy, or making it seem they are.:) I feel it is good that many of the companies hang out here, a plus in my book.
Off next weekend for camping with some Coleman collectors in the Sierra. :)
Duane

[michael levi]

I think the answer is simple, there is a wait because zpacks doesn't pay slave workers 50 cents an hour over in China like mainstream companies!

[Dharma Dog]

Good things come to those that wait.
Joe just made me a custom tent stake bag to fit the 9 inch Ruta Locura carbon fiber stakes and then put up with me adding a sunglasses pouch to the order at the last minute. The order was entered into the USPS system early in the morning of 8/6 and I had my stuff in the late afternoon of 8/7.
Can't complain about that. My order was all stuff sacks and such. I imagine the quality control required for the larger more expensive gear causes the delay.
KCCO

[Corbin Camp]

Anyone complaining about the wait time won't appreciate quality craftsmanship. I waited over a month to get my quilt from EE. That was not because it took that long to make, but everything to do with making sure it didn't get shipped when I knew I wasn't going to be in town when it was delivered. This was at my request. If this were from one of the big manufacturers, I'm not sure they would have been so accommodating. As for the guy who got just the raw cuben fiber. A mistake was made and it sounds like they fixed it. Not sure you would have gotten that quick of a response from a big company.

[Kate Magill]

For the same reasons we wait for our food when we go to restaurants that are committed to producing fresh, high quality meals to order for every one of their customers, even when we could just do the McDo drive-thru and have our food instantly :)

I would love it if cottage gear producers had an organization like Slow Food–a way of promoting small local manufacturers with an emphasis on quality and innovation and customer satisfaction, not just the bottom line. Maybe organize OR-type events specifically for cottage/indie producers, plus workshops and skillshares for those just dipping their feet into the small business and outdoor gear worlds…

Finding ways of *sustaining* small businesses, rather than forcing them to grow (and become the next Golite) is so important. I've talked to a lot of retailers (in the outdoor industry and otherwise) who would love to carry more small brands, but it's risky to invest in a little-known brand when the risk of start-ups folding is so high.

[peter vacco]

Jason : all quite correct, and will remain so intill something new comes along. the new thing that came along was QRM (quick response manufacturing) which, if you follow the rules, can land you reduced lead times AND better quality. QRM is a game changer. so, all of that is good.
the problem is that QRM, powerful as it is, is simply another tool. and you will soon enough reach an end to it's glorious benefits as well as all the other things you've tried. QRM was developed/promoted mainly by Dr. Rajan Suri. reading his books is mandatory to keeping up with production methodology. it is not at all intutive at the most basic level, but once you start to see things thru Rajan's eyes, QRM issues jump out at you from every angle.
i deploy QRM theory over a wide array of life's issues these days. from buying headnet material, to paying monthly bills, it's all the same story. analyise the task, reduce the changeover time, do not waste effort grouping work. do not waste effort batching jobs. do not squander the "now".

time is not money.
money is pathtic NOTHING compared to time.

[Nick Gatel]

We are too impatient. Instant gratification.

We don't have to wait, we can buy something else. Unless the "perfect" piece of gear is only made by one company. Then you just have to wait. Patience, Grasshopper.

Good planning should eliminate waiting as a problem.

What about the old days when we had to order our normal household stuff from a Sears or Montgomery Ward catalog? We dealt with it.

The one thing I hate about the companies you have to wait for your stuff are the few that lack ANY communication during the time from the time the order is placed until it arrives. I no longer do business with any of them; I don't care how good their gear is.

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