Ever wonder why there isn’t an aluminum Trangia alcohol burner?

"I still don't quite understand why a Trangia-style burner would "spit out fuel" and "get too hot" when my homemade open-jet soda can stove suffers from neither of these problems. The basic design of the two stoves seems quite similar, so this is still a little perplexing to me (I must be missing something)."

I believe a trangia burner has a fiberglass wick that feeds the holes.

I don't understand jetted burners, but I'm sure trangia does.

"I believe a trangia burner has a fiberglass wick that feeds the holes."

I think you are right about the fiberglass wicking, but I still don't see why that would increase the stove's propensity to spit fuel out the jets. If anything I would think the fiberglass wicking would help minimize this from happening…

The whole thing is still kind of mystifying to me.

I don't entirely believe the reply.

Aluminium and brass conduct heat to a fairly similar extent. I find it hard to believe the aluminium gets that much hotter than brass.

I would suggest that the reason they don't do an aluminium burner is because they can't solder the top to the bottom, to really seal the joint. Too much risk of a leak with an aluminium join there, especially after some novice bangs the burner around a bit.

Cheers

Roger, you're probably right. And if a hole develops in the join, wouldn't that spit out fuel just as they stated?

The reason I like the Trangia is that it works well over a wide range of temps. I've made a lot of burners and the biggest downfall is that they often only work well in a narrow temp range. Usually the biggest problem is that they will boil off more fuel (Spitting) than they can burn.

To give you an idea, try the SVEA trangia-like burner that comes in the old Swedish Military mess kits alongside a real trangia. You'll discover that the SVEA burner sucks even though it is only slightly larger and also made of brass. I know, I've done these experiments a lot and burned through many a gallon of SLX.

So it isn't that easy to make a decent open burner and Trangia probably lacks engineering resources. I know of two Trangia copies that are lighter and I can't say that they are an improvement over the original.

At the end of the day, I just want my stove to work and that is what Trangia does best.

Zorg,
What kind of temperature ranges are we talking about here? I'm just curious at this point. I was hoping you could elaborate on your test results, as I've only used my open jet soda can stove in the summertime.

With that said, I was under the impression that if there were ever "spitting" problems where the stove was vaporizing more fuel than it can burn, this would happen more frequently in warmer temperatures due to alcohol (and any other liquid for that matter) having a higher vapor pressure with warmer temps (all other things being equal)… But I've used my little homemade stove when it's been 90 degree fahrenheit outside without any hint of this "spitting" phenomenon. Am I missing something here?

Is it right that Ethanol and methanol corrodes aluminium?

"Is it right that Ethanol and methanol corrodes aluminium?"

No, not in my experience.

Not directly but it's the water content that does. The amount varies from brand to brand, country to country. Some people also add water to reduce soot because they don't like to get it on their hands & stuff. Never bothers me!
Earlier Sigg fuel bottles (dunno about now) weren't coated inside & could develop pin-prick holes. I guess most folk are using plastic bottles now.

"Is it right that Ethanol and methanol corrodes aluminium?"

I cut open an aluminum fuel bottle from MSR that had had held alcohol for a number of years. The bottom had dendritic "etchings" in the bottom. There was a fair amount of material missing.

I don't know if something from the alcohol "filled in" manufacturing cracks, or created them. But it didn't look good.

Greg, I have seen the same thing, only about ten times worse.

I don't know if it is from water or the actual alcohol. I don't see that in a white gas container.

–B.G.–

"I don't know if it is from water or the actual alcohol."

…or from the "denaturing" chemicals.

Sometimes when I'm priming one of my old brassy stoves, it will spit out some small droplets of alcohol, neat to see them, especially if just before dark. I use denatured alcohol on everything, burns clean and no black soot. Brass is used to make the priming cup on the old kerosene stoves, Coleman's, MSR's and others all get a dose too.
Duane

It's the water. Can be up to 5% water in denatured alcohol – especially older brands. Ethanol also readily absorbs water from the atmosphere.

There's a brand of British kerosene lantern you may have heard of – Tilley. It's common to leave the priming torch for the lantern in a jar of 'meths' aka denatured alcohol. The steel parts of the torch go rusty over time if you do this. Years ago I switched to 'pure' (it never is 100%) ethanol. While also more volatile it also didn't rust Tilley priming torches.

> It's the water. Can be up to 5% water in denatured alcohol – especially older brands.
In your dreams.
There are no limits to what the vendor can put in denatured ethyl alcohol in the USA. All sorts of toxic and corrosive chemicals have been found. Some of them WILL corrode aluminium. Talk about Buyer Beware!

Cheers

I found an (older) aswer on the net about the MSR bottles from Cascade Designs for gasoline/ethanol mix fuels

http://gl1800riders.com/forums/showthread.php?180916-For-those-carrying-MSR-bottles-of-gas-w-ethanol-Don-t!&s=8a75191b6a6814792736a123056ed25e

(post 13)

It is regrettable that there does not appear to be any commercially available denatured alcohol that does not use toxic and corrosive substances for denaturing. I have searched for awhile, but haven't been able to find anyone who doesn't use methanol and/or petroleum products (like nasty methyl isobutyl ketone) for denaturing, no matter how "clean", "green", "non-toxic" or "organic" they claim to be.

Basically ethanol is safe unless ingested in excess, non-corrosive, and produces only CO2 and water vapor when burned properly (i.e. completely – there will be some CO if not burned completely). No danger from exposure to skin or inhaling the unburned vapors.

The point of denaturing ethanol is to make it so that it can't be ingested. Seems to me that goal can be accomplished without using toxic and corrosive substances. Both methanol and methyl isobutyl ketone are toxic when absorbed through the skin or the vapors breathed, burned or unburned. Instead they could use something like ipecac to make it undrinkable, without making it deadly and/or corrosive.

Which would make me feel a whole lot better about handling and using it as a fuel in general, and especially when necessity dictates cooking inside a tent. If anyone can find a source for non-toxic denatured alcohol, please let us all know!

Pure 200 proof anhydrous ethanol (no additives or water) can be obtained, but it is difficult (cannot be shipped to a residential address) and expensive (at least $27/gal PLUS $27/gal excise tax unless you can obtain a special certificate from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms):

http://www.capitolscientific.com/reagent-chemicals-and-lab-chemicals/pure-ethanol-200-proof-ethyl-alcohol

I won't be buying this good stuff for research and development purposes (for that I use Kleanstrip but wear gloves and a respirator), but I have considered buying it for actual camping/disaster preparedness use.

I didn't realize this was such a concern in the USA. To my knowledge it isn't in the UK, Scandinavia & rest of Europe where the Trangia is popular. I've used denatured alcohol regularly since the 70's, mostly in a tent & plan to continue to do so. Of course that's not an endorsement for anyone else to do the same!

We can get bio-ethanol from DIY stores here in the UK for domestic fires. I don't know if that's denatured. Maybe worth a look. One alcohol domestic fire manufacturer's site I looked at reckons only carbon dioxide & water vapor are given off & no flue is required.

I'd be interested in whether the bio-ethanol from DIY stores in the UK is denatured. I would be especially interested if it was NOT denatured, and could be purchased and shipped economically (and legally) to the US.

Alcohol is denatured…..only so it cannot be consumed as a drink. The sole reason, is that it is not taxed like alcoholic drinks are.

Your government openly will poison you, before it allows you to circumvent a tax. Fact.

All of this "temperature range" business of alky burners is just one more reason why I've gotten away from them and gone to ESBIT fuel.

And FINALLY I have found the most efficient ESBIT system:

1. Trail Designs Caldera Cone stove & pot (Mine is a 3 cup pot on a Trail Designs Sidewinder stove)
2. Brian Green Blog modified "Gram Cracker" ESBIT tablet holder to burn all the liquid residue, almost DOUBLING the burn time and leaving no "drippings" on the aluminum sheet/shield below.

This combination works at any altitude and temperature and my Ti stove is convertible to wood burning mode if needed.

But I know the alky fans out there will continue to work away at their favorite fuel system. It's sorta like fly fishermen refusing to use live bait and spin casting gear. As Tennessee Ernie Ford used to say, "Bless yer little pea-pickin' hearts." and continue with your quest for the ultimate alkyl stove.

(Don't remember Tennessee Ernie Ford?? What, you didn't grow up in the '50s??)

"I'd be interested in whether the bio-ethanol from DIY stores in the UK is denatured. I would be especially interested if it was NOT denatured, and could be purchased and shipped economically (and legally) to the US."

How far north are you in Northern Calif? Cross the state line into Oregon and you can get Everclear at the liquor store.

Thanks for the tip. Unfortunately I'm about 4 hours south of Oregon, but I'll keep it in mind if I get up that way.

This vintage c1930's one is pretty good. 2 pans & a lid with 2 part windshield for storm-cooker performance & predating the Trangia system by a few decades. With a Speedster burner to replace the old brass original this outfit weighs less than my caldera cone with burner & AGG 3 cup pot.